Tracy Harwood 00:00
That's great. Okay, okay, well, hello and welcome to a special episode of The completely machinima podcast of the regular podcast team. It's just me today. I'm Tracy Harwood, buying joined by two guests. I'm delighted to have the chance to speak to again, let me welcome and introduce you to Vladimir Nadine and Dimitri froyle off. Now Vladimir and Dimitri are the coordinators and curators behind the against gravity programme of machinima at the Oberhausen international Short Film Festival, which took place between the 26th of April and the first of May, I think I've got that right this time, where I was actually really thrilled to be invited to participate in the panel discussion. Now I've written a blog post that you can catch up with on our website, and also an episode where the podcast team, Ricky, Phil, Damian and myself, discuss Oberhausen, too. But it's really great to have an opportunity to hear the thoughts of the organisers about the Machinima programme as well. So welcome to the show, both of you. It's great to have you here. I would like to start really by asking you each to say a little bit about your background and how you came to be interested in machinima to start with. So do you want to just tell us a little bit about you, about you both.

Vladimir Nadein 01:27
Hi, everyone, and thank you so much, Tracy, for inviting us to your wonderful podcast that we were actually been following for for a while already. And it's Thank you. It's an honour to be here together with Dmitry. And yeah, my name is Mesmer Nadine, and I'm a film curator and film producer, currently living in Taiwan, but previously, I was based in Moscow. And we together between, we had been running Moscow International Experimental Film Festival before where we met and where we worked for several years together. Yeah, but how actually, how I got interested in machinima, I think there are kind of three, like, not maybe milestones, but kind of three points, or like three episodes. Regarding that, first, I think it's, like seven years ago, I think, or maybe, like, maybe eight years ago, I went to Whitechapel Gallery in London, and seen Harun Farouki's Parallels 123 and 4, and for me, it was kind of an eye opening experience. Because I could see how he could use like video games in such a kind of critical way, but also like very poetical way, you know. So it was really fascinating experience. But I didn't have I didn't really thought deeply on what he was really doing. I was just like, fascinated by the images. And also maybe, that I was used to play games a lot when I was a teenager. So it was kind of it all get together there. And then I remember, like a couple of years after, I just kind of made them like small video essay that in. I never showed it to anyone I just posted on kind of radio mag website. So it was kind of a collection of representation of the cast Soviet Army in the second world war games, like in western video games. I kind of Yeah, like from the games I played, I think I carried some cutscenes. But also like, just like some kind of Let's Play videos. And I just put them together and just like posted randomly, and yeah, and then I think the third kind of milestone that I was curating a film programme for Venice Architecture Biennale, it was that both like film programme and video game exhibition. So I put like nine films based on game engines and appropriated video games. And that was kind of a big entry point that I could see that's there's so many works done within video games, and I felt like this. What do we also try to emphasise, I think in the curatorial texts that, for me, there's a kind of liberating experience as a filmmaker, maybe or like, you can easily go to that world and do whatever you want, you know. So that's resonated with me a lot. Also, when we found this quote from Phil Solomon, that for him, it was also a liberating experience. So it resonated with me, like, yeah, extensively.

Tracy Harwood 04:58
And Dmitry, yeah,

Dmitry Frolov 04:59
Yes. Hello, everyone. And yes, thanks again, Tracy a lot to him for inviting us. It's a great pleasure to participate in this conversation. I think my answer will be way shorter. Because, well, I'm actually a also film curator and programmer and I write a little bit about film and art. But I think I'm trying now to remember which machinima was the first I've ever seen. And I think it was also a film by Harun Farouki, but maybe another one, which is called Serious Games, where he were these German filmmaker, analyses, the the phenomenon of using video games for in Military Industries, or trading for soldiers, or what also for working with post traumatic syndrome. And but then, I think I, I encountered machinimas in different contexts, here and were from time to time. Until the moment when I, I think it I think a couple of years ago, I realised that it it was a quite a big phenomenon in the world of experimental cinema. And yeah, I started seeing more and more machinima works at different film festivals I attended. And then, but I didn't think of machinima thoroughly. And I didn't think of making a programme like that, until the moment when Vladimir contacted me and invited me to take part in this project. So actually, it's thanks to him that I got involved, more or less deeply in, in machinima.

Tracy Harwood 07:24
Fantastic. Well, okay, what I was gonna ask you is how did you come to participate in the Oberhausen programme? I mean, was that serendipitous? Or did you? Did you approach the director? Or did they approach you or how did that happen?

Vladimir Nadein 07:41
No, the director of the festival director Lars was generous to ask me like, if I have some kind of proposal for the film programme. Yeah, and I just kind of so they have some ideas around like films made within video games, or game engines. And yeah, he asked, like, if I can draft something. Yeah. And then he said, like, it's quite interesting. And then I immediately invited me to join me because it's quite big field. So yeah, it can be very, I think there is a space for cooperation, and this kind of field is so deep, so you cannot do it on your own. So I think it will be to it together, I think.

Tracy Harwood 08:31
I think I think that's true.

Vladimir Nadein 08:33
Community as Yeah, you know.

Tracy Harwood 08:37
Absolutely. But I think about what you put together was, was a much bigger programme than I would have anticipated that you would put together as a sort of a major theme. How did that theme kind of emerge from the, from the discussions that you had, Against Gravity?

Dmitry Frolov 08:58
I think from the very beginning, we had an idea to dedicate one of the screenings to Phil Solomon this very important figure of American avant garde cinema. Because he he's a unique filmmaker, who used to make 16 millimetre onward films using a lot of photochemical processing and optical printing and all sorts of analogue techniques to create almost abstract films. And then at some point, he made this dramatic turn you know, switch to machinima which, which, which is really something that nobody could Imagine before and yeah, we, we just realised that probably He must Phil Solomon embodies this idea of, you know, looking for some specificity in machinima for a certain aesthetics that can be found in this medium. And I believe that somehow he managed to translate to to keep his, you know, avant garde techniques when he started making films in GTA. Yeah, but so Against Gravity is, is the title that, that, that we got a word that we sorry for my poor English like, it's the title that we coined reading one of his interviews. In this interview, he said that machinima liberated him from the gravity of his age, and also his illness because he had a long illness that actually had to do with physical gravity, he couldn't spend too much time being you know, somewhere in in the heights in, you know, in mountains, for example. And, yeah, so this illness forced him to to feel this kind of gravity of physical gravity. So, but at the same time he, yeah, obviously, he also saw machinima as something that can liberate could liberate him from from the weight of heavy camera equipment. Obviously, you don't need a camera to do to make machinimas.

Tracy Harwood 12:10
Absolutely. Just sit in front of a screen and record. To which point doesn't it tell us a little bit about the background that you've got the the background, the background? Yeah, because that's really interesting as well, we were talking about this off off screen just before we started the interview just a bit more.

Vladimir Nadein 12:31
It's a it's a steal from the islands in Second Life, but it's quite unique island, because it was made by a French filmmaker, Chris Marker. Yeah, and basically, that's the island that still exist. And it's kind of acts as a museum. And also, like, there are two cinema spaces, where you can see both films, like two films of Chris Marker, one of the prominent films he made like litterateur like as part of like, iconic for the film. But Mitra he is more like, actually has more knowledge than me and Chris Marker because he did a retrospective of his works. But yeah, and there's also kind of a museum with images, I think, and also figures that fascinated Chris Marker throughout his life, and a maybe influenced his work. So yeah, I encourage you to walk on this island and everyone, it's called Ouver. And there's also machine with based based on that island.

Tracy Harwood 13:52
So you get to the point really, where what you're you're doing is highlighting very different types of avant garde kind of work using different kinds of, of, of environments. But But back to the point about Against Gravity and the use of these kinds of virtual environments. One of the points that I thought you've picked up on really, really well, very, very interestingly, was this discussion about the move between analogue and digital? Did you tell us a little bit more about how you kind of came to that thought, you know, go get programmed around that sort of thought process about demonstrating this shift between analogue and digital, which, you know, I know you're just talking about threre and other artists and I don't think you showed any work by that particular artists. But yeah, tell us a little bit about this sort of analogue and digital discussion that you wanted to demonstrate through your programme.

Vladimir Nadein 14:57
Thinking we'll just briefly say that It was actually one of the first ideas like, actually, you know, like, it's now feel strange because when you making a programme on machinima, like, this is probably the the additional thing that you might think of, you know, but there it was kind of, yeah, the title came very early of our research. So it's kind of emphasise the direction. And then, I don't know, I was specifically like, fascinated that how feel like being non gamer has nothing to do with like digital art or digital filmmaking, you know, kind of found video game space. Also kind of made me material in a way. I that's what that's how I feel that you know. So I thought, oh, and we did yeah, we thought like, maybe we should show these kind of works along together and see what like, see what happens. Also kind of to maybe different, like to defend machinima in a way, you know, to defend this world. It's like someone who is deeply rooted in like analogue filmmaking, which is very important for like, experimental community experimental film communities as a whole. So let's say you kind of defence machinima as an art cinema, you know. But of course, we watched these analogue films also, like, on quite poor YouTube links, you know, and for us, it was like, also kind of an, in a way the event when we see in the in Oberhausen, you know, like having these works all together on the screen. So this is kind of very specific experience, I think. So it was kind of an experiment for us as well, you know, we just thought okay, might be. Let's do that and see what happens.

Dmitry Frolov 16:57
Yeah, we basically wanted to juxtapose two cinematic apparatuses like 16 mil, because we brought this external projector inside the auditorium so that the audience could hear the sound of this correct cracking sound of the projector. And we screen to 16 mil films by Solomon, but and then after that, we screened his machinima trilogy. And yeah, we're, I think it was a lovely kind of experiment to feel the difference of the, of the nature of the image. And then, but apart from that, I wouldn't say that we really try to focus on this conversation about the, the difference between digital and analogue analogue, we really wanted to find out what machinima was, and what kind of forms can it take and you know, like, obviously, we primarily were in we were primarily interested in artists film as such, and how artists approached these medium. But I believe that many of them managed to, to really reveal many aspects of machinima many fundamental fundamental traits, fundamental features of machinima. For example, we dedicated one of our screenings to the subversive strategies, we call this programme cracking the code. And the title speaks for itself, like the filmmakers in this participant in this programme. Either wreck the, the correct video games directly by by intervening by subverting the code or the hardware of the game. Or, alternatively, there could be films that would, some would correct the ideologies embedded in the in video games, especially in such video games as second as like those sandbox games like Red Dead Redemption, I mean, open world games, like Red Dead Redemption, or or Second Life, indeed, that we've already touched upon.

Tracy Harwood 19:49
Yeah, yeah. Um, what was the sorry, go on? Oh, sorry.

Vladimir Nadein 19:53
No, I just wanted to add like one thing about like Solomon, maybe. I think that also the title of the programme that We chose was interplay. So I think it's kind of it's, it's an answer to your question, you know, like, this is the interplay between analogue and digital. So it's not like a juxtaposition, I think. In a way, it wasn't just supposition

Dmitry Frolov 20:20
brings certain interplay, I think rings a bell.

Tracy Harwood 20:25
Yeah. Well, it struck me that I mean, again, just reflecting on the on the on the background, and also the Solomon's work on the the interplay that I thought that you did so well in between the sort of analogue and this, these digital ideas in the in the selection of the works that you you'd picked, certainly the ones that I saw, I mean, and I was so regretful that I didn't manage to make make it for the whole five days of the event. But the ones that I thought sort of demonstrated machinima in different ways, some of them were not really sort of what we would call examples of story based machinima but were documentaries about people create creating machinima or using machinima in some in some kind of way. And, to my point, about Marker and Solomon, the what you've got with with a lot of Second Life stuff tends not to be story based machinima and but but more documentary based on what goes on in that space, through the virtualization of the creative. You know, the creator, if you like, and they tend to be sort of documenting what they see. And I think quite a lot of the artworks that were shown with that were in that sort of frame, whereas what you got with Solomon, which tended to be him exploring that world, and some of the glitches in that world, which was a slightly different way of approaching the kind of world was that a deliberate strategy as well, picking picking different types of machinima

Dmitry Frolov 22:18
Certainly, certainly, we wanted to be as representative as possible, although you you totally right, that we didn't really touch upon the, this vast part of the machining world, namely the narrative machinimas the machinimas that tend to try to tell the viewers a story. But I don't know. Like, I think we just it's a matter of our background, we we've been interested in avant garde cinema and experimental film, for many, many years, and maybe this is slightly subcultural approach, and maybe childish approach in a way, but we just we see avant garde film and experience film as a certain underground whereas because it is, this is what happens with with cinema in general. Narrative cinema is mainstream one, right and

Tracy Harwood 23:37
well, if you can argue that YouTube is mainstream, yeah.

Dmitry Frolov 23:41
Yeah, yeah. We used to Yeah, YouTube, but it's a good point. YouTube is a new television, right. And television has been fighting with cinema in a way and maybe absorbing cinema for for for ages. But, so maybe YouTube is now the measurement mainstream. But yeah, we we try to touch upon. I think we there were a couple of films that could could be called narrative in our programme, but but in general, we try to represent different artistic strategies, which means strategists come in, in the art world and among major film festivals, experimental film festivals. So yeah, but I wonder what do you think in terms of this level of representation? Have you managed to see at least one machinima one method of machine anywhere that that were unfamiliar to you,

Tracy Harwood 25:04
in the film festival in your film first, yes,

Dmitry Frolov 25:06
yes,

Tracy Harwood 25:07
most of it. I wasn't familiar with many of the, the films. But you know, when I was thinking about that, actually, I realised that a lot of the distribution strategy that artists and creators of experimental works, but the strategy they used to distribute the work isn't the same as the more community, you know, community based work that I tend to, to see and that we tend to review on the podcast, to be honest. I guess, you know, in some ways, what we could say is we're a little bit lazy with how we how we go about selecting the machinima that we review. But it just doesn't come across our desk, you know, the, the, we're not a festival, we're not a gallery. We're not an event. And therefore, you know, how do we get access to this experimental work? And I think that's a real challenge. I think that's a, you know, it's an interesting challenge that really can only be solved by the kinds of things that you've you've done with Oberhausen, which is to reflect a programme of work that demonstrates the way in which this kind of creative practice is being explored across a breadth of different types of creators, which is what I think you've really successfully showed in the, in the programme. I guess one of the questions I've got for you is, what was the reception to the programme? From the audience that went along to it? Obviously, they were other filmmakers primarily, I guess many of them analogue filmmakers not so many machinima type filmmakers, certainly I didn't see many that I would have recognised I think, what was the response to it?

Vladimir Nadein 26:57
That, I think? Yeah, at least whatever we kind of the direct response we've got, like, I think a lot of people were really fascinated. And also, like, never heard of machinima as such, you know, like, even, which, for me, was surprising. Some, like, professors that are teaching media even like approached us like, oh, wow, this is completely new thing, you know, to me, and it was like, really, like, there is still like, holes that you can open to people, you know, because you think like, there's, there's nothing to kind of open to, you know. So I was, it was really, it was a pleasure to hear to hear feedback like that, you know,

Dmitry Frolov 27:46
It was really surprising to receive that kind of response. Knowing that the phenomenon has been there for more than 20 years, you know, and it's but still, yeah, most of the audience at Oberhausen and they really hadn't known about machinima before. Maybe some of them. I think they could watch a couple of films made in video games, but they didn't know the term machinima and they didn't know that. It it has such a big history and diverse forms. So yeah, we the most common response was fascination, interest and how to sell like gratitude to what we we've done.

Tracy Harwood 28:51
Absolutely. And highly, highly commendable. In terms of what you've done as well. And what kind of questions did you get asked by that audience, then sort of behind the scenes, so to speak?

Dmitry Frolov 29:05
I think I think one of the most interest in type of questions was related to the technology of filmmaking, like how people how the filmmakers managed to make that kind of films. But obviously, the answer is different in in in different cases.

Vladimir Nadein 29:30
But I also think that the need we, I mean, I have this anticipation, but I think people before coming to the programme, there was kind of this myth that you should be gamer to be able to perceive this film, you know, and I think we could Yeah, obviously, like a race. This means, you know, like, people couldn't be if people understood that it's not appropriate. It's not mandatory to be video gamer like a game or ever experienced the game before going? And I think it's this kind of, it's very important.

Tracy Harwood 30:09
Yeah, I mean, that's true for quite a lot of machinima. But it's sometimes the game adds a layer that makes. Well, that creates a different level of message, doesn't it? That's the that's the that's the kind of point with machinima. You've got the game. You've got the game context, the code context, the story context, the creative context and all of these kinds of things interplay to create the the kind of unique narrative that you get with machinima that you almost don't get in any other form, I think. Okay, well, I think I suppose really what what, I don't know if you've seen this. Have you seen Sam Crane's article in the in The Conversation? Did you read that? Recently?

Vladimir Nadein 31:03
Yeah, some cranes? Yeah. Yeah,

Tracy Harwood 31:06
yeah. So some some who basically won the critics award for his version of Hamlet, in Grand federal Grand Theft Auto made this quite pertinent point in this article, which is for those of you don't know that it's an online, mainly academic journal. But he made the point that the view of cinematic gatekeepers of machinima works, has tended to be that they are trivial and game gaming, geeky, and you've kind of sort of said that maybe this has finally been dissolved. And he made that point too, that maybe that view of machinima is finally being dissolved thanks to your efforts at Oberhausen. Do you think that's true? Did you find a lot of resistance at all? Did you find any resistance

Vladimir Nadein 31:55
Against machine?

Tracy Harwood 31:56
Yeah

Vladimir Nadein 31:57
I think I maybe in a short film world from what I perceive right now, I think it's more accepted. But maybe this I mean, of course, for example, like the work by Total Refusal for example, like did not the only last piece made by them Hardly Workin'. But also other films that this also is widely shown across like film festivals. But it's like still concentrated like I would like to see more machinima works by different artists in different film festivals. But I think still short term work to be more ready for that. And then work by have the feature films that could be like really challenging I think, to get a great film was made recently Knit's Island by French team that we also showed me a short work. This work recently won in Visions du Reel very young festival in Switzerland, it's a documentary made in survival game called Daisy. Maybe I don't know if you show like hear the trailer?

Tracy Harwood 33:21
Well, certainly put a link to it.

Vladimir Nadein 33:23
Yeah. Yeah, but I think yeah, and in the feature film world, or it's, it's a it will be resisted a lot, I think. Well, from various points. No, I think it's like it will come from both like aesthetics, copyright laws, I think because the producers and they won't risk without having permissions. I think it will kind of prevent them from doing the films in video games. Video games not like game engines. You know, it's a it's already other discussion. So what's your take

Dmitry Frolov 34:10
on No, I totally agree. I think this is what stops machinima evolving into really something big in among, you know, big platforms, and, you know, big Hollywood Studios. These legal status, the grey zone of the legal status of machinima. But I also think that the times are changing and like this medium is becoming more and more prominent In, in this kind of, if not commercial sectors commercial section of Moving Image production, but at least in the in the field of contemporary art and artists moving image, which can eventually evolve into you know, something into the situation when I machinima wouldn't be accepted by my bigger players in the industry, although at the same time I know very little about obviously the there was this Mandalorian TV series and but I think it was made by means of game engine. So it's, it's completely it's a slightly different thing. It was made in collaboration with big studios and the developer of this game mansion. Is that correct?

Tracy Harwood 36:00
It is, I mean, you know that you're talking about machinima as a as a practice, versus machinima that's based in sided inside a game world if you like. And really what that what you're talking about is the Machinima techniques and tools being based in Unreal Engine, for example, or unity or whatever, where they're creating the virtual world and then using it as a 3d, real time virtual environment to act with on a on a stage basically. And that's, that's basically using machinima techniques that's Mandalorian. Acting with with with virtual, the virtual set in real time, but using the 3d virtual environment as the set rather than a real set, so to speak, right, and that's machinima techniques completely. And in many ways, that's what I thought artists like and Alice Bucknell, were also doing them she'd created her virtual Mars and different versions of it as I understood it. And maybe, maybe you can correct me on this, but I understood that she had created them in Unreal Engine and then filmed them within that virtual world, and created her short narrative pieces of those three different worlds in that in that space, so she used it in much the same way that filmmakers larger filmmakers would have used as well. That's really what the potential of it is, you know, you can quickly relatively easily put together your own digital set in a 3d environment and create your own story worlds. That's, as I understand it, how, you know, that's, that's basically what I call the marvelisation of filmmaking really, where you've got film games, you know, theatrical production, theme park ride kind of thing all coming out of the same assets.

Dmitry Frolov 37:57
Right, yeah. But But one can raise the question of whether it's still machining or not, because it it makes it very similar to basically just the another form of 3d animation, you know, software. And it brings machinima far, far away from the the original phenomenon, which was basically making films in video games. By playing video games.

Tracy Harwood 38:31
That's that's also very true. But it's, it's that broad, I think, you know, on the one on the one hand, you've got homemade story worlds versus, you know, fan based story worlds. That's kind of how it's been for 20 odd years. It's quite, I think it's really quite an interesting one. What do you think are the main takeaways from your experience then at the festival? What do you what do you? What do you feel? The takeaways were for the audience from it?

Dmitry Frolov 39:05
Well, I think, at least some members of the audience became machinima fans, as far as I can judge by conversations with them. Also, I can say that the attendance was really good. Almost all screens were sold out. And I hope the for the festival, it was a great success. And I think yeah, the media coverage was also nice. Many German, both local and maybe bigger. Newspapers and magazines, wrote about the Machinima. It was wonderful or, although most of the articles were in German, So, not so many of your listeners would be able to read them, I suppose but but still, maybe with Google Translate. Yes, that's right. Yeah. I think there is a great takeaway for Vladimir and, and myself, because we I don't know maybe I can say for myself, I, I got very interested in machinima over the course of working on this project, but but also I started thinking of it, maybe from a little broader perspective, which probably can be described by this term virtual filmmaking because I also see a lot of similarities between machinima and desktop cinema, because both one of the most common technology to produce machinima is the screen capture technology, just to extract images from the game, right? And desktop cinema makes the same thing. And now I am interested in looking for, like in in digging into this world, trying to maybe read more about that too, to get closer to this phenomenon. And maybe I hope I'll manage to, to maybe work on another project related to these things.

Tracy Harwood 41:47
And Vladimir, what do you think?

Vladimir Nadein 41:51
Takeaways? Yeah, I think. I mean, this is just like a nice thing that already happened that one of the one programme travelled to Oslo to know to Norway,

Tracy Harwood 42:04
I saw that that looked great. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah,

Vladimir Nadein 42:08
it was just like, such a, like, quick, you know, thing that happened. And yeah, we were really happy to do that. And like, personally, I think now, I mean, I really want to dig in like early days, machinima more. Because it's obviously. Yeah, it's more difficult. And, you know, much more than us. But yeah, and also, I'm very much became interested in like, early days of video games and like, digging into some rare games, and think of what how they can be used today. And yeah, like, certainly, like in Media Archaeology, but within the video game spaces, because I don't really know much about like, 90s, early 90s games or like, some machinimas would like, you know, for me, it will be interesting to find some kind of political machine is machinimas of the early days, like Alex Chan's, for example.

Tracy Harwood 43:11
That's not early days. That's 2005.

Vladimir Nadein 43:17
Yeah, 1010 year old machine.

Tracy Harwood 43:19
Yeah. Well, I was I was thinking you were going back to sort of mid 90s, because there's quite a few. There's so much the on the Internet Archive that you can dig out. And super ironically, Phil on the podcast here has just was just in the process of completing a project of restoring some are old. Some of the very early films that were part of a, an old website called Machiniplex. Which I think they go back to about two 2004 2005, but they were older films and that you might be really interested in that where he's used AI to restore the films to make them more acceptable for the current viewing audience because I suppose really, that was one thing that I I kind of noticed that you know, a lot of machinima films. And this is a question for you as well. A lot of machinima films have never been made for the big screen. And, you know, like you guys, when I when I did the festival in 2007. I can remember thinking through that quite a lot about what are we going to see on the big screen that will change the perspective of what the original creator of that film actually intended when it was originally meant for distribution through computers and I guess I was a little. I was a little surprised that it wasn't, it wasn't something that the filmmakers that you'd use gathered around at Oberhausen, perhaps and really seem to reflect on. Overtly anyway. And I just wondered, did you give that some thought as well?

Dmitry Frolov 45:21
We certainly thought of that, when we were considering including earlier machinima works, because we thought, okay, we, we kind of show this piece by Hank, for example, because it's, it's, it's just a video file with such a poor bit rate. And like, yeah, the ratio, you know, the quality of the image would be awful. And we, we decided to, to leave this this. But at the same time, I think when it's a very difficult question, a very deep question. Because, obviously, the game, the video game, aesthetics is way more I wouldn't say like singular, but it's, it's so different from the photographic image, right. And, indeed, it's sometimes, like, watching these videos on on a big screen would be, would be quite strange, because you would see all these simple textures, you know, these big pieces of, you know, colour coloured pixels, and but it's, it could be it could make the film look, looks maybe even silly. But surprisingly, maybe it's just because we, the vast majority of the films included were made in recent years. Were like the, which means in video games that have quite elaborated computer graphics, right. But but maybe big. But maybe the reason is also the, in the fact that we, the filmmakers, I mean, the artists who use video games to produce their films managed to open up something really fascinating in in video games. And that eventually, the audience perception was very positive. And I while watching this myself, while watching all these films, I rather enjoyed I didn't think of the you know, just maybe a couple of times, I thought, Oh, okay. It looks a bit a bit. I mean, the image is a bit poor on this big screen, but in general, I, I enjoyed all the films so much, and I was immersed in the nature of the of each work. So that's, yeah, I will say that. Maybe not whatever machinima you want, but like bashing him in general, the current state of machinima has its own place, in cinemas in cinematic environments.

Tracy Harwood 48:52
And what do you think the legacy from your perspective of how this event went? What do you think? What do you think others will take from it?

Vladimir Nadein 49:02
Yeah, I think they'll definitely I mean, I'm curious to see like in the coming years maybe also programmes on machinima in some festivals or maybe we will be able to do like in that or that form or some kind of different form. I'm sure it will happen. Because you know, like the Oberhausen is like a film festival where like a lot of certain professionals are coming so I think it will definitely affect but also maybe someone would like to write about it. I know that I will be curious to see what kind of legacy it will have, you know, maybe I don't know maybe new machinima festivals will be established. You know, there's one great in Milan which we Milan Machinima festival that you know, and we are also really grateful for their work, what they have been doing It's really Yeah, it's very important that maybe there will be more of that. I don't know. Certainly have to see.

Dmitry Frolov 50:08
Maybe, yeah, maybe even at the Oberhauser Film Festival, we'll see. Yeah.

Tracy Harwood 50:15
Well, I think you've left an important legacy because you know, you're right. There have been other festivals that have included machinima, quite a lot of festivals over the years. But, but none that have tackled it in the way that you have, I think, and I think you've put a real marker in the ground and, and opened the challenge up for other major festivals, but more major festivals even to think about how they include this kind of practice and, and also recognise the, you know, the name that it has, although maybe that name doesn't quite fit it anymore. I don't know. Do you? Do you feel that there are some next steps to take from your perspective?

Dmitry Frolov 50:58
There is a thing that I'm excited the same time, and frightened about, you know, and with, like, I'm talking about all these new VR technologies, you know, the Apple introduced their new VR kit recently, and I think Meta is about to introduce their new version of Quest.

Tracy Harwood 51:34
Okay, next question. Yeah, yes. Next

Dmitry Frolov 51:36
question. And I think this is something I mean, it seems that these technologies are developing really fast and significantly, and I think he wanted to look at this, like, thoroughly and keep an eye on what what's going on there. Both in terms of the the apparatus of the the moving image there, but also, the artistic strategist, I haven't seen too many really good. Virtual reality, artworks and films, yet? I haven't seen many of them yet. But I believe the they will emerge, for sure.

Tracy Harwood 52:29
I guess they will. I mean, you know, maybe what you're looking at this isn't the same kind of experience at all is it's a completely different kind of thing that you do in a VR experience than sitting and watching a film. Because Because you're you have an active role in many ways.

Dmitry Frolov 52:47
Sure. But the games are, the games are more than into this kind of dimension, as well.

Tracy Harwood 52:55
I think that's a natural way to take the VR experience is more sort of immersive experience rather than cinema perhaps. But it'd be really interesting to see what that does mean for cinema experiences, if indeed, they can find a killer, a killer app. For the VR headsets that are being launched. I don't know what it will be. I mean, I've been sitting and watching this one for some time. In fact, Hugh was one of the first to create a VR experience. I think it was called Left Hand Path. And I think that was really released launched in about 2017, Hugh Hancock that is who was the founder of the machinima.com website and who coined the term. So he's, you know, that he was one of the very early pioneers in that field as well. No surprise. But like you, I haven't seen an awful lot of cinematic experiences through through that beyond the actual games and adventures. So be interesting to see what happens there. What was going on? So it was quite interesting, he said, Say watching the technology, but what kinds of its experimental themes are you thinking that are likely to be explored in, in in future festivals? You kind of got any any idea on where the directions of experimental works might might go?

Vladimir Nadein 54:23
In general, like experimental film

Tracy Harwood 54:25
or what yeah, what and in terms of what what your perspective is on on how this field is developing.

Dmitry Frolov 54:35
One of the programmes we, we we dedicated one of the programmes of our project at Oberhausen to the certain kinds of there in machinima world where filmmakers try to recreate the their favourites just to recreate parts of their favourite films or follow the style of their favourite filmmakers like David Lynch for example, or Pier Paolo Pasolini, we had a piece on that and I think this this can be quite an interesting direction for you know development while the technology will is becoming more and more accessible. I think more and more people, more and more film buffs will become like filmmakers themselves will become will will try to recreate their favourite pieces. But at the same time I think the probably the most significant style of or maybe not the style but the most significant type of machinima is a critical machinima in the world of experimental film. Artists just try to understand the virtual world by means of machinima. Understand or really different aspects of this world from from a certain critical distance.

Tracy Harwood 56:28
Yeah. And of course, as, as it says, lots of new types of games being launched, which provide lots of opportunity for doing that if they're going to make game based work. Sorry Vladimir, you were gonna say

Vladimir Nadein 56:42
no, I was just like, about to say that. I think that or maybe just my wish, actually. That I'm kind of Yeah. Yeah, I think I wish they said like, that in world of machinima will they'll be more diverse, the selection of games actually been appropriated. You know, like, as one of the our colleagues and like, new friends that we met at the festival, counted how many films were made within GTA five, you know, and it's like, still kind of the, and it's totally secret is still the majority of, you know, films or machinima, experimental machinimas is still made within video game within within GTA, which is quite obvious why, you know, what I would like to see more game selection, actually.

Tracy Harwood 57:37
Yeah, I agree with you. I think GTA has run its course. But I think that's probably the the nature of the filmmakers that you you're, you know, that are working with this with this medium at the moment, which is, which is why I think that, you know, the YouTube community has gotten a much more diverse strategy with the engines that it selects. And not, some are not really wedded to any one particular game was early machinima creators tended to stick to one game and GTA being one of the more sophisticated environments that emerged, I guess, became something that was quite popular and people just stuck with it, I suppose. But I don't think the graphics now are as as, as great as some of the other stuff that we're seeing coming through really. I mean, Warhammer 40k, for example, isn't it is kind of pretty incredible. And then we last month, we actually picked up on a really, it's kind of a much older game, flight simulation game. But that used to create some incredible narrative based machinima, of course, but some really interesting commentary on on the, you know, the technology in the game, and the lore in the game, I suppose. Well, well, I've got some other questions, I would kind of like to ask, but it might be a good time to sort of just ask you a little bit about copyright and where you think this whole issue around copyright might be going? And how that can be overcome in the festival context.

Vladimir Nadein 59:29
Yeah, that's my actually my kind of answering question towards your question about what are the next steps and he was talking about like virtual reality I think And here we're like speaking maybe more like from a film producer side. I think then, maybe sort of a protocol should be created. You know, also, like as I said, like, short film world is more are like, not resisting towards machinima, but as a feature film world is, yeah, we'll really try to prevent a think of video games go into film industry, bigger scale. So I think maybe people that are interested in like, they should create sort of a protocol, I guess how to use that or how to speak to game developers, because it's really nobody wants to have nobody wants to deal with a Rockstar, for example, it's like, you know, it's better not to, to make this film, I guess, you know, or other. You know, it's just easier not to deal with that. And it's quite frustrating. Also, maybe not only for the film festivals, well, some kind of film grants, you know, the filmmaker wants to have some budget for making the film, even though maybe it's not that big, because you kind of use appropriate video game, and you need for some post production, sound and etc. But still, you know, nobody wants to deal with that without having particular steps of what you have to do. Because, I mean, I was talking to some lawyers and everything's so blurry, you know, like, so yeah, I would stay for sort of a protocol or just being copyleft in that sense. But if you can do it only on your own, not like working with a producer, or

Dmitry Frolov 1:01:33
unfortunately, copyleft strategies don't work with big institutions, they always rely on on the legal process. And, like the, the legislation and so I think, you know, it's like looking at what's going on now, I believe that it will be the constant kind of struggle, a constant struggle between people who want to capitalise on machinima production and the there isn't a structured way of filmmaking, that, that that goes beyond capitalist process strategies, you know, like, people will invent ways how to make and distribute works, then capitalists would invent certain framework how to capitalise on what these people do. Then, again, another stage of looking for another lacuna, where filmmakers can continue making what they want to do. So yeah, I think it's this, this story behind the director mode in GTA speaks for itself, you know, this, this tool invites you to create films in in GTA, but at the same time, you have to follow certain, you know, rules certain framework. And as Vladimir said, nobody knows what, what, what will happen when, for example, a machinima work, wins the Cannes Film Festival, for example. And, or like, or, or an Oscar, for example, or something like that, which will make it so like popular so big that obviously, Rockstar wouldn't, wouldn't be happy of just letting it go, you know, and not capitalising on that. So again, it's I think it's just worth wanting to wait and see what's

Tracy Harwood 1:04:36
I think, I think, you know, you're going through the same thought processes that a lot of the community have gone through over the years and I'm always minded by one of the things that that Hugh Hancock actually did say, which is when when I think he, I think he came to the end of his, his his Bloodspell trilogy that he created, and he basically said, machinima if you were starting out would never be a way that you would choose to make films. And I think what's really interesting is the fact that with the Unreal and the Unity strategy of, you know, making assets available to creators, almost this issue now has been sidestepped, and it's a question of what you put in that 3d environment that makes that your own environment, and then how you can kind of use it, and what layer of the game lore a game lore, you might try and then apply to those, you know, those kinds of new virtual worlds that you might kind of create? So you know, is it it's sort of, we're almost sort of fudging the edges of what traditional machinima is and how it slides into virtual production in, in these kinds of new worlds and, and how you then sidestep some of the copyright issues, such as you can, or the transformative use issues or the parody issues that we are seeing emerge again, and again, and again, with the use of this, this kind of work, I suppose really, I was kind of intrigued by by the fact that many of the creatives that are using this are also selling their work to to collectors and galleries. And and how that how then that work, sidesteps the copyright issues when in that kind of process? Or maybe the galleries don't care? I don't know.

Dmitry Frolov 1:06:30
It's a good question. I have no idea because because there are a number of works we showed that are in, like, in several art collections. And one of them was made in Second Life. But I don't know whether the they clearly, you know, cleared the rights and when they deal with the Second, Second Life developers to to deal on that. That's a good question. It's use

Tracy Harwood 1:07:05
interesting Second Life always made it made it very clear in their T's and C's like that creators could use any of the content, the issue there isn't with the developer, but the people that own the assets that have been filmed. So it's the other creators, and you'll find that there are sort of soft agreements that are shared between creators when they go on to different islands and film on those different islands. It's kind of an interesting approach that how that that particular world has developed for filmmaking. So do you think you would ever consider doing more more traditional machinima or including more traditional machinima in a festival environment from from YouTube or Vimeo?

Vladimir Nadein 1:07:59
Yeah, that's what I was also like saying, when we're thinking, talking about takeaways, you know, like, maybe, I mean, during our research we did we dug into the early days of machinima, for example, you know, what, of course, we are not that we can call ourselves experts in there on that period, you know, what, of course, what are you asking? It's not only about early date, but it's also about today's machinima. I would certainly try. Try that. But again, like, as we just said, like our background is a bit like it's a bit different. So maybe we should also still, like, try to find more like experimental machinima in these spaces in like Vimeo or YouTube.

Dmitry Frolov 1:08:54
I think it's a matter of proper framework. And I would, I would definitely be interested in showing many classic machinimas, many narrative films, narrative machine works. And that's why I've got quite interested when you said that you you were working on the restoration of some of them, which can because again, one of the biggest challenges with showing early machinima is the matter of the image quality. So it would be great to maybe discuss these films that you've restored separately. So yeah, but I believe we'll find a proper framework to, if not dedicate the big programme to narrative machinima, but at least to include many works of that kind to all future programmes.

Tracy Harwood 1:10:01
Well, that sounds like an opportune point to stop. I need to put you in touch with Phil. It's not me that's done the restoration words. It's Phil. And I think he's been talking to Ricky about that. So he's definitely the man to speak to on that. But But listen, I just want to say a massive thank you for taking the time out to just talk to us about your your Oberhausen Short Film Festival programme Against Gravity and your thoughts on next steps. Vladimir. Dmitry, thank you so much for joining me. Talking to you again soon.

Vladimir Nadein 1:10:41
Thank you so much. Yes,

Dmitry Frolov 1:10:43
it will be forward. Thank you, Tracy. Bye bye.