CMep200-B
Wed, Oct 01, 2025 1:12PM • 37:40
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
AI integration, machinima, virtual production, professionalization, fan creativity, Minecraft short, narrative experiments, remastering classics, retro games, music signature, ethical concerns, Warner Brothers lawsuit, AI backlash, creative tools, Heir to the Empire.
SPEAKERS
Speaker 1, Damien Valentine, Phil Rice, Ricky Grove, Speaker 2, Tracy Harwood

Speaker 1 00:01
And now it's time, I said, and now I said, it's time,

Speaker 1 00:18
and now for something completely mashing Emma enough for something completely mashing Emma enough for something almost entirely, very precisely, but Just not exclusively, sort of adjacently, kind of approximately completely,

Speaker 2 00:42
so

Speaker 1 00:54
this

Tracy Harwood 01:01
episode is where we do our year in review, what else do I want to say? I want to say, for example, what are our predictions next year? Well, okay, do you want me to go on this one to start with, yeah, you've got the floor. Okay. Well, obviously I think AI is going to become more central to the process, not optional. We've seen it being you're either against it or you're for it. I don't think there's an against it anymore. I don't think if you're an animation creator, machinima creator, it's not an option anymore. It's no longer in that domain. It's core, it's central to what you're going to be doing. So that's my position in sand on on generative tools. I think, I think machinima and virtual production will become virtually indistinguishable what it's called, I've no idea, because I don't think virtual production or machinima as terms necessarily get to the core of what this new real time technique is. So there's a there's a debate, maybe, to pin it down to something, something that's closer to what actually is the convergence of these two things. I do think machinima definition has broadened. It has definitely, you know, it's, it's a catch all, most definitely, for all kinds of real time game engine, AI based storytelling, and it's hugely flexible and multicultural in its categorization. I think we're going to see more professionalization and scaling up. I think we're going to see more big budget stuff. I think we're going to see more professional studio adoption. I mean, we're already, for example, seeing, you know, professional actors like Sam crane, for example, picking up from his grand theft Hamlet success, and saying, oh, yeah, there's more scope for doing puppeted theatrical performance. Well, I mean that this is no this is not new. This has been done for at least 25 years that I can can recall, but it's probably takes somebody like Sam and his audience to actually make it fly. So it'd be quite interesting to see how live puppeting is kind of, you know, advocated even more. I think we're going to see more fan and indie creativity. I think we're already seeing some outstanding quality work from amateur creators. I mean that the quality of work that we've commented on this year, from from teams, even, for example, the what was the the Minecraft short that we saw a couple of weeks ago?

Phil Rice 04:16
Kid, Flash, Kid Flash.

Tracy Harwood 04:17
Kid Flash, the quality of that made in that game was absolutely outstanding,

Phil Rice 04:26
and we should mention, by the way, when we covered that in the episode, I had some questions and aired them that I didn't know whether that film was created entirely within Minecraft or If it was one of these blender things that we've seen. The creative team got back to us by feedback and let us know it was created entirely in Minecraft using that BBs mod. It would already be impressive if it was blended. Blender. But that is just mind blowing, based on what we know about Minecraft, Minecraft has been kind of a really hard, hard rock to mine, pardon the pun, you know, to get something done in there. And yeah, what they've achieved there is absolutely as good as the stuff we've seen people do in blender with Minecraft assets, absolutely as

Damien Valentine 05:24
good watching them very closely, I think to see Yeah, next,

Tracy Harwood 05:27
yeah, yes. Absolutely outstanding quality. And from a, you know, very small creative team, it blows me away. What these guys can can achieve. I think we're going to see more narrative experiments, probably using ambiguity and mood, because that seems to be the flavor that everybody is moving towards. I guess that's that. It'll be interesting to see how that unfolds. But I do see that as a thread. I think we're probably going to see more remastering of classics as well, whether they are remade and remastered or, I don't know, I think we're going to see more of that kind of thing. And I think we might see more retro games being used for creative work as well. And I think we're going to see more music as as a What would you say a distinctive signature to the creative work that that folks might do? So yeah, that's my evaluation of the year. It's been a lovely year I've had I've really thoroughly enjoyed looking at everything that has been made and listening to all the critiques that you guys have added to the films that we've discussed. It's been fascinating.

Damien Valentine 06:47
I'd like to see something like the predator film inspire people to be more experimental with how they use tools like iClone or unreal rather than just doing what everyone else does look at something like this using the same tools, but it has such a completely different visual style to it, and learn from it. Even if you copy their style, it's doing something different. But, you know, give it your own flavor. What can you do differently that's maybe somewhere in between? Or look at killer killers and think, Well, can I do this even more extreme than what they did anyway? Have fun. Experiment. Do something different, because you've got some good ideas for your story, but don't make it just look the same as everyone else's, which is, that's a lesson I'm taking to heart myself. So I'd like to see other people do that as well.

Ricky Grove 07:38
That's great. I predicted if the Warner Brothers, mid journey lawsuit sides with Warner Brothers, there'll be an uncertainty in the AI creation community, and perhaps a little stuttering throughout the year. But I think there's so much money to be made in AI that the major players will quickly negotiate with places like YouTube and will clean their databases. And I think we'll see something like what Phil was suggesting, which is a layering out of of licensing, a more ethical approach to it, because frankly, when AI started out, all the big companies simply got greedy and went out and stole everything that they could, and now they're paying the penalty for it.

Phil Rice 08:37
Yeah, you know, I'm not going to be anybody to stand in the way of the notion that these companies are greedy, but attributing this to greed almost gives them too much credit. I think it falls. I mean, I mean, I mean that, like, if it was greed, then it's like this was a scheme, and I don't give them that much credit. I think it was just dumb rudeness, just complete thoughtlessness. Is what it was. It was the end result. Was theft, but it was just thoughtless. It was just who cares. It's there so it's ours. It was an entitled grab. So greed you kind of feel is like a, you know, I'm gonna, I mean, I guess ultimately, what's the difference? But, yeah, it's disgusting,

Ricky Grove 09:33
yeah, but don't, don't. Most of these companies have legal, massive legal teams that advise them on the ramifications of their choices, didn't they

Phil Rice 09:43
do? I just, I just they do. I just don't think Sam Altman strikes me as a person who listens to good advice. The skibbity Toilet image of Sam Altman is is the most accurate metaphor. Well. Just saying, I say that as someone who loves and uses chatGPT for work, I love it, but just he, just, he just strikes me as a bit of a douche bag. There's no other way to say it.

Damien Valentine 10:06
Who was it might have been Sam Altman. He was questions about stealing stuff, and he saw, who cares about when he takes something from a library you don't pay for it, you just,

Phil Rice 10:27
oh, yeah, yeah, no, literally, yeah. That is the attitude. Is just this. It just No, no apparent concept of, you know, the relationship between an artist and their work and just stupid too, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's the smartest stupid person that I can think of, because he's not dumb. Look what, look what he helped make. But it just, I don't know some people are, are book smart and emotional,

Ricky Grove 10:58
very narrow vision, yeah? Kind of person.

Phil Rice 11:01
So what am I looking forward to next year? Yeah, I don't. I don't have, I don't have good, broad fortune telling skill at all, like I don't know what to expect. I do think that that there will be some progress on this unresolved question that's hovering over AI. I don't think that the people who have their heads set against AI, I don't think they're going to be very easy to convince, even when that ethical, what a reasonable person might think is an ethical solution is put in place. There's some people who aren't objecting to it because of that. It's more on the principle of, what is it really? It's it's kind of this sense of, okay, if I've used this on the show before, I apologize, but I think of it this way, if I show up to a golf course, and I've built a machine that will tee up the ball for me and hit the ball for me and then take me over and hit it to the next and take it all the way through and hit it in the hole, and I do all that, That's a pretty interesting technological advancement, right? The fact that you can get a machine, a robot, or whatever, you know, one of Peter Rasmussen's type of robots, where it's humanoid form, is not important. It's just the objective is important. So this is a machine purposefully designed to just masterfully hit the golf ball and all that, and to invent that and put that out there and say, That's I invented that that's pretty impressive. But to go and say, I am a professional golfer now that's different, and that really would offend golfers who spend a lot of time figuring out the physics of their own body and how to hit the ball right and how to do all that stuff, and they spend all this time perfecting this craft of playing golf, and to show up with a machine that just does it all for me. And I sit back and smoke a cigarette, but I say, I'm a I'm a professional golfer. I'm just as good as Tiger Woods. Why? Because my machine can get the ball in in just as few strokes as Tiger Woods. That's offensive, and I feel like that, that some of the people who oppose AI are oppose it in that sense that it's just damn offensive, the idea that, you know, it's kind of the dark side of what some look at is the positive of, hey, this opens up creative avenues for people who maybe don't wouldn't otherwise have them. And you can say that that's a positive thing, but to somebody who has slaved away to become a fabulous writer like Lisa, or become a fabulous artist like you name it, or a fabulous musician like such and such, and they've worked really hard at it, and it's it's not easy to be good at those things, and so To have someone just show up and be cranking out novels because chat GPT can just do it by me typing a sentence, a vague idea, and it turns it into something, and people will buy it. Even though it sucks, they'll still buy it, because the bar isn't all that high, really. It's just, I don't know. I think that there are human artists who find the whole notion of these tools offensive that's going to get in their way, because the truth is, is that they are the people who are probably the most empowered to do the most magnificent things with these tools. But that mindset of, you're not a damn golfer. Stop calling yourself a golfer. You're not. You're a guy who built a machine that can golf, but you are not a golfer. And that's it seems silly, I guess. But when that golf when those golf machines start filling up all the slots. The US Open, maybe they've got a point, you know, why should I keep golfing? What's the point this schlub can show up and he's 300 pounds overweight and is drunk the whole time, but he's got a machine that could hit the ball and he's a golfer. Now that's who, that's who we're holding up and elevating and handing a trophy to wouldn't you get pissed off if you were a professional golfer? Golf is very competitive, you know. So I think, I think that metaphor works within the art world, that there's people who have worked really hard to do this thing that is not easy to do, and that applies to any of the arts, from writing to painting to to to acting.

Tracy Harwood 15:44
So do you see, do you see more golfers or more robots this year than

Phil Rice 15:52
this year more robots? I don't think it's sustainable. I don't think it's sustainable long term. I think that some of the people who are relying on the golfing robots are assuming that the public just doesn't give a shit. So I'm going to sell all as much of this as I can. There are. There are some novelists, low grade novelists, who have been exposed in news stories where they get caught, where they actually published a novel and it still had one of the chat GPT prompts in the text, and someone missed it. There's people out there doing that, you know. And I think that if I was Lisa Morton, I would want to kick that person's ass, because they're selling novels like crazy, but I wouldn't want to beat their ass, you know. So I think that there's, there's going to be a flux of it, because it's so easy and it's so cheap and anybody can do it. But eventually, we're already seeing we talk about AI slop, and we use that to to describe this effect of, yeah, someone's peeing in the pool, okay, someone's peeing in the pool, and there's not enough pee in the pool to see the pee, but we know it's there. We see them standing there peeing in the pool. Well, at some point the pool is going to turn the color of pee, and then the public's going to go, what is this? No, and then there's going to be but I don't think all that will happen in one year. You like those metaphors had to work in a restroom related metaphor, right? So, but yeah, I think, I think that there's a, I think there's a backlash coming. We need more chlorine. Well, yeah, yeah, I think there's a backlash coming. And I mean that on the public side, I think artists are already they've been pushing back against it, and they feel like they're not really being heard, and they feel like the public doesn't really care, and that's because they can't see the pee in the pool yet, or maybe they can't even spell it yet. Sorry to get graphic, but eventually it's going to be evident, and real creators are going to regain their value in the eyes of the public. I really believe that, and that's not false optimism. I really don't think it is, but I think it's going to get darker before it gets light again. I think we're a couple years away from the full on pushback of that, and some of it may come down to some high profile instances of the abuse of the AI tech in the public eye, like some video that gets, I mean, we've seen small instances of this, where video gets circulated and people think it's real, and then it's not someone's going to do that for the wrong thing, and it's going to be something important, like something happening to a world leader or political figure, and it turns out to be fake, or some video that comes out of a war zone and it turns out to be fake, and it and people are going to start waking up that even though that has nothing to do with the artist argument, but I think that there's going to be a revulsion against the AI stuff, because I just don't believe that art that lacks that human soul. I don't think it's sustainable long term. You know, I just don't Good point. It's like, it's like food that's going to spoil

Ricky Grove 19:19
a great point, Phil, but rather crudely made.

Phil Rice 19:23
Yeah, I'm sorry about that.

Ricky Grove 19:25
I'm not going to be able to go to the local pool.

Phil Rice 19:30
Well, you shouldn't

Tracy Harwood 19:32
detector stuff, don't you?

Phil Rice 19:34
Yeah, so broadly, that's the only prediction that I would have. Is I don't think the solution for the AI thing, not just because of the slow speed of the courts. That's a factor too. But I don't think the overall solution, like one where artists are feeling like they've they've got their moorings again. I don't think that's less than a year away, but I do think it's coming, that I think, I think there's going to be. Some tough, tough road to travel.

Damien Valentine 20:03
First, I'd like to add two thoughts about AI that I've had Yeah, as a response to that. So then I still have a couple other things, but yes, please do go to me. Okay, well, it kind of goes with it what you just said. So using your golf analogy, you turn up to the golf course, you place your machine, you press the button to turn it on. No matter what level of golfer you are, if you just do the occasional game for fun, you're an amateur, you're a professional, where's the fun? And just pressing a button, like you play golf, it's meant to be fun. You have you enjoy yourself playing the game, but if you just all you do is press a button, and then you could just go home and let the machine play the game and you go home and do something else, man,

Phil Rice 20:43
that is a really, really good point that I did not think about. Yeah, there's no satisfaction for the person who creates in that way. And by the way, when we're talking about this, we're not talking about someone like neural viz, because pressing a button is not what neural viz does. Neural viz, has put these things. He's carrying these things, and he's using them as tools. He, it is what he does is very, very, very creative. And he, I bet he or I'm assuming he, is it he or is she? I don't know for sure, but I bet they are getting extreme fulfillment out of that work. I'll bet they are. There's just no way in that you can see it. It's like when you can taste in the food, when the chef is happy that that whole old lifestyle. I think that's true for art. Yeah, this his films feel loved. And I have seen what you're talking about, Damien, I've seen it happen already in a microcosm. There with there's some guys that were on Twitter for X that when some of these generative AI movie tools first came about, they did, they made some stuff, and actually it was quite good, and then just it just they just move on to something else, because it's not fulfilling in them in the same way that you get out of working on Heir to the Empire, you know. And what you do is much Harwood, and you would think, Oh, that's gotta be tiring. And, yeah, damn right, it is, but it's worth it, you know. And I don't think that from the Creator perspective, if you're just pressing the button, doesn't deliver any of that fulfillment at all. So yeah, maybe that's how it will also how it will pay then, so to speak, yeah,

Damien Valentine 22:30
and that's kind of the reason I don't use AIs for anything I do, because I just, I like doing the work. The work is part of the fun for me. Yeah, some of it can be tedious, but when I've done it, I think I did that. So that is the satisfaction of it, and, of course, the challenge of it as well. Like the chapter 31 of air to the Empire, the 14 minute space battle, I had to animate all those spaceships. I had to animate every single laser that, of course, that's a lot of work, but I wanted to do it. I didn't want to say, animate me a space battle, and then press the button, and then it comes back to me however long it takes later. I wanted to say I did that, and that's why I'm going to keep doing what I do. And I'm probably not going to use generative AI, because I just have no need for it. There's another point which was going to make, which, oh yeah, it's kind of along the same lines you were talking about the backlash. I'm starting to see some of it already. Again, goes back to s the Empire. I've seen a couple of instances of other people doing their takes on adapting the book. One is, is like an anime style. This AI generated, and all the voices are AI, and they made some adjustments to the story. And then there's another one, which is, I think it was done in Blender, but again, the the voices were AI, and I was reading some of the comments on the moon. I don't want to sound like I'm being egotistical about my work when I say this, but people are saying they like mine more because it's not using AI. And this is just people who are watching it. They're not. I'm sure there are some creative people leaving these comments. And people have been leaving comments on mine saying this is the one that doesn't use AI, so it's better. And I'm also saying that because it's my work, and I'm obviously biased towards my work, that's just something I've noticed other people are saying.

Phil Rice 24:29
I've seen those in comments on your work, yeah,

Damien Valentine 24:32
and I imagine that, you know, in other videos online, that's probably happening as well. We're saying, Well, I like this one because it's not using AI.

Phil Rice 24:43
And, you know, the curious thing to know about that would, and it's something we can't really know, but it would be what the age bracket is of the people who are saying that, because it could be, I think that Gen Z ish age. They've felt that way for a long. Time, like, almost from the beginning. And so it could just be their voicing stuff, but, but I do think it's going to shift, and we're going to see trickles of shifts of attitude like that. Yeah, so, and I think ultimately that's a good thing. Like, I don't want to see these tools go away. They're, first of all, they're just not going to But secondly, I don't want to see them go away. I just want to see them find their place. Mm, find their place, the proper place in in the structure of things. And I'd really love to see them used by really creative people. I think, I think that that's really some even with old school generative tools that Tracy's mentioned that she knows people who've been using this stuff for decades in whatever form it was at that time. And there's definitely procedurally generated, technically AI generated tools related to music composition and sound sound design and things like that. Aphex Twin, some of the stuff that he does is technically a type of AI. I mean, it's not press the button and do nothing. It's very hard work to make innovative sounds, but it's leveraging the tech to where, hey, you're under my control here. So yeah, I think there's a promising future for it, but because of that power grab of taking everybody else's stuff, whether it was thoughtless or whether it was it was concentrated, greed doesn't matter. Still sucks. You know, I think that's that's corrupted the whole journey here, unfortunately,

Damien Valentine 26:30
one of the things I think will help is when random people get bored of generating stuff. I'm not talking about creative people. I'm just saying, you know, people think I'm going to play around with this and puts it together and they stick up on YouTube, because one of the things I encounter with AI content is there's so much of it, I just don't engage with it because it's just looks like everything other AI thing. And not talking about good AI generated stuff, but just in general. So even when it is something good, I really struggle to get into it, because it's just seen so much of it. It's like Halo machinima. There was red versus blue was pretty good,

Phil Rice 27:07
cursed by the ease of how easy it was to make.

Damien Valentine 27:11
Yeah, but yeah, I hated red versus blue, not because of red versus blue, but because there was just so much Halo content and a lot of red versus blue. So you could show me a masterpiece with Halo, and I would not want to watch it. Yeah? And I think we all feel that way to some degree, because I

Tracy Harwood 27:31
do think they're in danger of breaking YouTube with it at the moment, though, because there, I agree. So much crap on there isn't there. You can't,

Phil Rice 27:40
especially in the ads, yeah, well, anyway, ads which, which is supposed to be a doctor talking about this thing you're supposed to put into your body to make it better, or this doctor supposedly citing that, and it's clearly an AI generated ad looks, it looks photo realistic,

Ricky Grove 27:59
again, if they use mid journey to create that ad, and they lose the lawsuit with Warner Brothers, YouTube's gonna get rid of that in a flash.

Phil Rice 28:09
Yeah, they could pull it all.

Damien Valentine 28:11
It's not just the Warner Brothers, it's Disney and Paramount, they've teamed up with, yeah, going

Phil Rice 28:17
after them. Yep, very interesting. All right. So what am I looking forward to for this year? It's very narrow, very specific. I'm looking forward to seeing another film by daminski. Oh, yes, absolutely. Minsky is the guy who made that three part movie called mission. I think it was. Yeah, I have to, I have to hope and believe that he's working on something. I have no evidence that he is, but I have to hope that he is. That he is. I don't care what tool set he's using, if it's still Source Engine or something else. As a storyteller, I'm very excited to see his next work. I'm excited to continue the journey of the series called The lonely. We reviewed one of those episodes, I think, during the course of this year. This is the film by the series by the biz that follows the adventures of the Lone Ranger who is living in our, essentially, in our modern world. Wonderful stuff. He's done more, at least one more episode since the one we reviewed, and it's spectacular. There's this, there's this, like laser tag scene that takes place, and again, it's unpredictable. It's, it's warm, it's, it's very humorous. So I'm excited to follow that series, and I'm really excited to, I think that this coming year is going to have us see the next episode of Forbidden Planet. Yeah, because he took a little bit of a detour, I think because of some PC hardware issues that he was dealing with. And my understanding is that he got those squared away, and now he has shelved. Little side series that he was working on. And I think he's, I think he's plugging away at Forbidden Planet. I'm very excited to see more of that so and then, in terms of retrospect, I think the one thing that is quite significant that we did not mention here, maybe out of fear of some kind of like nepotism or something, is our own Damian Valentine. Completed a series called Heir to the Empire. And the the net runtime of that is, it's like, equivalent to, like, a full series of television. I mean, it's, it's very long. And not only completed it, but as I think he's finished remastering, and is now re releasing the remastered versions of it. I know that that didn't all take place during the year of you know, 2425 but what's significant about it to me is that you finished and that is not something for big projects. For every big project that we can name here in sight, you know, torn seas by Richard Boyce Ferret, I think it was the Unreal Engine, one with all the robots. That was a feature length film, blood spell, we can think of others. But for every one of those, there's 100 big projects that someone took about, you know, set about to start and did not finish. And so I just want to as as my friend and as a fellow creator, I just want to congratulate Damien on the achievement of seeing it through to completion. And this is during a time when the technology he was making it with was evolving. So he ended up in this George Lucas scenario where he's finished it, and then he goes back and looks at the first ones like, wow, they don't look as good as the last ones. And so he went and fixed them. Not fixed, but like, went to apply the improvement so that they all have a dude. It's an amazing achievement. And Damien is the first to be modest and and defer credit to others and and he's got an amazing cast. That voice cast of all non AI performers, Ricky Grove being one of them, I got a little bit part. It was, it was just a thrill to do so many talented people doing the voices on that. But in terms of production and creation and Damien, you can correct me if I'm wrong here, Damien's essentially a solo creator, and to produce something of that length and that quality and just stick with it is just amazing. And I'm in awe of you, really. I mean it genuinely. I'm, I'm awed by your devotion to this, to this craft, to the project. And I'm not going to curse you by like, saying I'm looking forward to Damien producing something else, like I'm looking forward to Heir to the Empire part two, starting because I don't want to you take your time, man, and if you're going to do that, you do it on your schedule. You need, you deserve a break. But amazing year. And really, seriously, just from my heart, I just really so greatly respect and admire your work ethic and your dedication to doing things the way you see is the right way, and sticking to that. And it's just it's amazing.

Damien Valentine 33:34
It's hard to know what to say to that. So I'll just go with that. Thank you for now, and yeah, part of the reason I'm doing the this re release is like, you're right. I watched, I did 31 I feel like chapter 31 is probably the best thing I've ever done. I'm proud of all my work. But, you know, sometimes you have one project that really stands out, and for me, it's that. And I went back and watched chapter one, and it's like, how do I convince people to stick with it all the way up to 31 if it looks like chapter one? Oh, that's a great point. And so unlike George Lucas, I am going to keep the original versions available, like he he got rid of us. Sure isn't this is the I want people to watch whatever version they're happy with, but for me, it's going to be the new one. And I've changed very little. It's still the same scenes rendered with. What I've changed is I've put in the the updated character models so that's consistent on the way through. And I've had to change the lighting because icon is lighting doesn't work the same way as Omniverse, and there's a couple other tweaks here and there, but I want to keep it as close to what I did originally as possible, just looking better. Part of the reason I'm doing it this way is I'm releasing one chapter. A week and a two so far, but still got another 30 to go. I've got seven left, six left to render, but they're so far ahead that I don't have to worry that I'm going to run out of time with that. But part of the reason is, if I release them for 32 weeks, I've got time to, you know, catch my breath. The RE render itself is a rest period as well, because what I've got to do is make those tweaks and then press the render button that is still fun, like not comparing to the kind of thing earlier, because I can have a break and rest, and I can read the next book and stuff like that, but it gives me 32 weeks to still release something and feel like I've made something again, but it gives me time to figure out the second book, and I've got a few ideas of something non Star Wars that I'd like to do in between as well. Just to as much as I love Star Wars, I don't want that to be the only thing I do, right? Yeah, but yeah, thank you so much for that kind words. Yeah, brilliant. And my

Ricky Grove 36:08
last, my last hope for the future is that Neural viz will somehow figure out how to bring Prag snarboe back from

Tracy Harwood 36:20
Fantastic. Okay, well, I think we've reached a natural conclusion to Episode 200 of the end now, for something completely machinima podcast, there's one more

Damien Valentine 36:32
thing I'm looking forward to, Oh, go on seeing what films the three of you pick for the next year.

Tracy Harwood 36:38
Absolutely, I can't wait to see what you pick next year. I mean, we've got, you know, season six kicks off immediately with almost no break. Plus we've got some very exciting new episodes to share with you, the wonderful world of sound, which Ricky has put together with Phil, which I can't wait for you to have the opportunity to comment on. And of course, we'd be delighted to hear from you guys, our audience, on any picks that you would like us to take a look at and discuss. We are getting quite a few selections come in now which is is great for us to have a chance to talk talk about with you. So that's it for this week. Thanks very much from me, from Ricky, from Phil and from Damien,

Phil Rice 37:36
bye, bye, bye.