Damien Valentine 00:44
Hello and welcome to another episode of A now for something completely cinema. I'm Damian Fauci, and I'm joined by Phil rice, hello and Tracy Harwood,

Tracy Harwood 00:54
hello.

Damien Valentine 00:58
Ricky is still having a really terrifying time at his convention. I hope he's enjoying himself. So we're gonna be talking about film this week that Tracy you have chosen for us. So tell us about it, please.

Tracy Harwood 01:14
Yes, I'm just trying to figure out how to say the creator's name. Lol. Rick,

Phil Rice 01:20
yeah, I don't know. I'm

Tracy Harwood 01:22
not sure if I, if I, if I make a mistake and have totally butchered that, I do apologize anyway. Yes. By Lowell rip, this is assault on tea fort. And actually, this isn't really my pick. I've got to be honest, it was one of the commentators on that absolutely stunning work that we looked at in episode 135 by dominsky called the wanderer. And this was a recommendation that came through a discussion on on that particular film, which was actually also a source film. So this week's project then took at least, I think, two years to realize it began a the creative work on it began in around 2020 with some of the clips having even been done as early as 2018 and it's a project that's been led by JP Stevens, known as Lowell Rick, who actually describes himself as a YouTuber. It's a little longer than some of the machinimas we review at 12 and a half minutes, and I think the original aim was to have this released as a longer format film of actually around 30 minutes. But in the end, given the amount of effort that went into it, or has gone into it, it's being released episodically. This part that we're discussing this week being the first episode, and as we stand here at the moment, we're still waiting for part two to be released, although there is a trailer for it, which I'll put a link on as well for those of you that are particularly interested. Now, Lowell Rick has said that he has struggled to continue the story, basically because he's been making it more and more ambitious, which has basically meant that the project just got bigger and probably more challenging as a consequence. I'm sure you guys will appreciate that sort of, yeah, reflection. I think, for what it's worth, longer format machinimas can be really quite hard to watch. So maybe the way to go isn't bigger, but to go smaller, and then to have in mind that making a feature is never just, you know, just stitching the shorts together. Really, I think the internet is full of unfinished short series projects, and many of them, I think, are a reflection of the fact that life moves on, probably beyond this kind of crazy creative passion that you know, we all kind of share through creating and watching machinima. All of that said, I think this creator is committed to making the part the second part of it. I just kind of wish him all the very best in doing that. Now, the plot for this particular film, this first part, well, it's obviously an excerpt from an evidently long running battle between these two factions, red and blue. It starts with a raid by blue on red, which leads to a kind of a retaliation on Blue's base. And the story is very much told from Red's perspective. These are a group of four characters, including, including the main focal character, who really interestingly for Team. Fortress is actually a Girl Scout. That's, I think, an interesting take on it. Now, what's impressive about this is actually the fight choreography between the two sides over what appears to be a fairly extensive map, despite, I think, not Well, we know next to nothing about the characters beyond what you know of the game. So I think it's quite interesting actually, that you can clearly see who is on which side and how they are performing in the running battles. And I don't think I got a sense at any point of losing who's on what side, who's red, who's blue, which is an interesting point, because there are quite a lot of characters in it. There's an impressive depth of emotion to portrayed by the characters. I got sense of fear and trepidation, bravado, camaraderie, respect between the individuals, and then things like hatred and spite towards each of the opposing faction members. But like I said, the story is mainly told from the red side of things. You definitely appreciate who the blue characters are too, though. So they're not, you know, they're not sort of, or we're going to put it all from this side, and we're going to just paint these other guys in a, you know, in a in a lesser way. That's not really how this has been done. So I think there's multiple layers going on with this which make it really interesting. So you've got fight choreography, but you've also got the relationship between the characters as well, fascinating depth to it. I thought the camera angles, the sound design and the edit with it were actually really very well done. The layering is what I really picked out on the most, though, and it's interesting because, you know, we were having conversation with Ricky's pick this month, where the the horror of what was portrayed in that just just really shocked me. But you know what? There's horror in this too, but it didn't shock me in the same way. And maybe, Phil, when you talk about your take on it, you can perhaps explain why that might be the case. Um, now there's another really interesting aspect to this which I liked, which was how the the red versus the blue context were conveyed. And it and it was as subtle and as complex, really, as basically a background filter that you saw. So you really knew the Reds were the red because of the color of the scene. And you really knew the blue were the blue, and you knew the moment that you went from red to blue because of the way the background scene changed color, which I thought was was a, was a, was a fascinating way of indicating how that transition between which side you were on was was conveyed without actually telling you as much with any dialog that sort of indicated. Well, now we're going to this, and now we're doing that it wasn't there, it was just the way it was conveyed. These atmospheric colors were brilliantly conveyed. And um, you and you, you simply just got the measure of what was happening and who was on, on which side because of that. And what was quite interesting with that was actually at the end, somehow the background colors were switched, um, quite deliberately, I suspect, but you still knew who the characters were, because by then, you knew who was whom and how they related to one another, which I thought you know that that relational depth was was was working just as hard as some of the choreography effects that were being used right in terms of the story arc, I think it's kind of worth commenting. Actually, we're caught up in a war here. You know nothing about who these groups of folks are or or why they're fighting, how they came to be on each other's side, etc. You don't know any of that. They're just presented together as you know, that that's the way it is. Now it's clearly drawing on the game law, which I think is probably, you know, the you know, if you come at this from not being very familiar with with Team Fortress, you won't be familiar with the with the game law. But I don't actually think it matters too much in terms of the story arc that you're that you're getting, and the and the way these two sides are are conveyed. The fact that you don't know too much about the game is not, not so important. But I think if, if what's being done here is to pay an homage to the game, then. And that presents it in a slightly different light. And it does become more challenging to make this accessible to a to a wider audience. And I suspect that the struggle this creator is having in coming up with part two is that, do I, you know, do I go down the law route, or do I bring in a new dimension route, and I'm guessing that, because this has been developed with so much attention to the community of followers, that that's a very fine line to sort of tread in the creative process, because you're going to have lots of folks that are very into the game law, and what you're trying to do is perhaps build out something a little bit different. So I think that's probably kind of all I would say on it really. I mean, I think we've seen lots of machinimas do something like this, and also lots of folks never actually complete a significant project like this. So, you know, I've really enjoyed it. I thought it was. I thought it was. It was really interesting on so many different levels. I hope, hopefully I've managed to convey that definitely encourage you to finish it, because I'm really looking forward to seeing the next part of it. So guys, what did you think?

Phil Rice 11:23
Go ahead?

Damien Valentine 11:26
Damian, I was I got so many thoughts on this one. Well, the first thing came to mind was, usually, in these films, we have a red team and a blue team because they're made with Team Fortress or Halo or something like this. It's told from the story of the blue team and the red team. They usually are portrayed as the bad guys. Okay, red versus blue is a comedy, so it doesn't really matter that much. But all these other films where they try and tell a more serious story, it's always the blue teams, the heroes and the red teams and the bad guys. I don't know why. It just seems to be the way it's done. And the first thing that struck me is this, this is told from the perspective of the red team. And I don't know if that's deliberate choice or just doing something different or what, but I kind of like that. It was reversed that way. But yeah, this is maybe the Source Filmmaker, and as we discussed a few times before a sort of filmmaker is a really hard piece of software to use and well just to learn it's, I think someone once told me, it's like sitting in front of a 747, in a cockpit and just looking at the controls, having no idea what to do. So when you see something like this, and it is so flawlessly animated, and there's so much attention to detail to the animation and the facial expression. You know, that's really hard to pull off, but then you also got this element of it's a fairly this film is a very long action sequence. There's some calmer moments throughout, but mostly it's focused on the action. Action sequences are hard to pull off. So when you've got the muscle, even if you're using something like GTA or something which is designed for action, it's still hard to do a good you know sequence. So when you've got a piece of software like Source Filmmaker, which is already incredibly hard to use, and then you got the challenge with that of doing something like this. I'm not surprised it took two years to do it, and why you're struggling with part two. I hope you finish this part two, because I really want to see more of this. It was so impressive and so well done. Probably my favorite pick of the month, just because the amount of work that must have gone into pulling this off, and the action was flawless. And, yeah, it's very gory, a little bit over top. I don't know if the actual game is that gory of his. If this is added in extra it appealed to my dark sense of humor a little bit, which we discussed this before we recorded. And I was surprised that he too weren't quite so amused by it as I was. So maybe I need to watch it again, the slightly more serious take on it. Yeah, yeah. This is one of those films where, if you're planning to do an action sequence in your own film, watch something like this, because it'll give you a lot of ideas, a lot of inspiration, of you know how to put, how to move the camera, where to focus, you know, all that stuff. And, yeah, I I'm struggling here now because I could just praise this on and on, and I'll just end up repeating myself, because I was blown away by how impressively well animated and it was. And, yeah, please do finish part two. I'd really like to see it. I did have a. But soon as I finished watching, I went to the channel to look for it, and I just saw the trailer, but there's no sign of it itself. So whatever struggles you're going through, I hope you figure it out, and then, you know, we can see it, and I imagine we will review that one as well at some point when we see it. So I wish you luck.

Phil Rice 15:27
All right, so here's my question to kick things off. Here is, what is the lore for Team Fortress two? Or maybe the better way to put it is, is there actually a lore? So here's why I'm asking that Team Fortress originally started off as a free mod for the game Quake, and essentially it was, it was like a more advanced version of a capture the flag scenario. You've got two teams and an objective combat based objectives on either side right, and whoever gets the job done first wins. And what Team Fortress added to that. You know, traditional capture the flag in those games was just four equal players, or however many equal players on each team. And it's just about, it's just death match and strategy, and can you outrun and all that. And what Team Fortress added was this idea of player classes. So Player classes would have different abilities. So, you know, there's, there's one player that specialized in stealth, and there's another class that specialized in demolition, and another one that carries a really big gun and, you know, and all of that. And so Team Fortress two was really just building more on that idea. And not only did the different classes exist, but they actually invested in creating personalities to go with those types and so not just in their look, but in their voice and in their movement and everything. And so it made the whole experience of it more engaging and more interesting to look at, while still preserving the core gameplay of these team based, class based battles, right? I'm not aware of any developer based lore other than the the fact that these, you know, that these classes have personalities, and then there's kind of implied, I'm not sure how much is by the developers of the game, and how much of it is what players have constructed around it, but the idea of, well, they have personalities, therefore they have back stories, you know. Why are they that way? You know? So I can't help but wonder if, if there's, and he even refers to the lore in his description, doesn't he saying that he decided not to really emphasize that, or go down that route, or something along those lines. And I found myself thinking, what lore? And it just makes me wonder, like, did the lore around this game emerge organically from the players over however many I mean, it's more than two decades that this game has been played in some form or another. So, yeah, that's that's interesting to me, because I, I mean, you can scroll through the Wikipedia article for Team Fortress two, and there's no mention of lore. There's no mention of story of any kind, really. They do describe the personalities of the classes, but there's no actual backstory to why these teams are competing, you know. So I think if that does exist, that has evolved in a sort of fan fiction universe, which is really interesting, that it would evolve, and that it would be, that means there must be some elements of it that were agreed upon by the community of players and embraced as lore. There's certain elements of that you can see in other in other game and film universes. Star Wars comes to mind the most Star Wars has a huge fan fiction universe and, you know, unofficial add ons to the to the Star Wars universe and stuff. So it kind of feels like that sort of dynamic, that this was fan generated. So I don't know. I just found it interesting that whatever that is, it's it appears to be unofficial, and yet it's so widely recognized that he made a point to say, that the filmmaker made a point to say, yeah. Not going that direction. And to me, as an outsider, I'm going what direction. You know, does this even really exist? So it's, it's that's fascinating to me. Yeah, there's a lot to like here. First of all, I was the film that we covered earlier this month where Ricky's pick, and Tracy was was really blanching at the graphic violence in it. And I'm just at first, I thought she was talking about her own pick this film, because what I was remembering about this film was this first time in a long side time that I've seen one of the main characters walk around with a smear of blood across their face, like a full on smear of someone else's blood, or picking up someone else's body to absorb bullets like it's Bruce Willis and Die Hard or something, or heads being completely blown off by this girl's shotgun. That's as like a wow graphic. So why? Yeah, that's a good question. Tracy, why did the violence in this even though you noticed it, but why did it not give you this visceral, negative reaction like it did? Ricky, and I don't know, I don't know the answer to that. They both are potentially disturbing depictions, right? But I think it may come down to this. You know, there's the violence of war, which is awful, but it it, there's some kind of underlying purpose to it. It doesn't mean that it's not got moral problems, right? War does, but it's something we can easily understand, and that's the violence that's depicted here. Essentially, is the violence of war. This is people defending themselves. If I don't kill you, you're going to kill me, kind of thing. And I think the violence in Ricky's pick was just full on sadism, just full on psychopathic behavior, someone seeming to maybe take a little pleasure in mutilating the body of another person. And that is more disturbing period in any context we could if we wanted to take the podcast to this direction, we could reference some historical things that have happened in the past 12 months, where that was pretty clearly illustrated as well, but we're not going to do that. So yeah, that's that's why I think the violence was more disturbing in Ricky's pick is the context. Context was that was a monster of a person who was delighting in tearing up another human being, and these are soldiers fighting for their lives. And yes, it's it's bloody and it's nasty and it's awful, but that's what it is. It could also just be that this is a little more cartoonish. But I don't think it's just that this violence is really graphic. There's body parts flying and, you know, bodies falling down stairs and a lot of death, right? So I don't think the cartoonish covers that. So visually, this film is amazing. The use of color. I didn't really take the use of the red and blue. You mentioned his background. It's really about the lighting of the sets. I felt like that. It was more used as a cue to where you are, not who you're looking at, because there was a point, about the halfway point where the red team is invading blues territory, and now everything's in the blue but you're still following the red characters. So I think, I think that may maybe that's even in the game, in the original Capture the Flag and in the original Team Fortress, the maps were built with color cues like that to let you know whose territory you were in so that could just be territorial markings in the game, I'm not sure, but it was used extremely effectively. It really helped orient you to not just who you were looking at, but where they were. So yeah, that was, that was great. The the emotional content, I can't remember the exact term that you used to describe it, Tracy, the the but, yeah, it's really rich in this.

Tracy Harwood 24:28
It's maybe things, isn't it? Little, little things like one of the big, big chaps puts put his hand around the on the on the girl's shoulder at one point. And I thought, what is that relation? I mean, are they? Is is that an orphan child scout or, you know, it was just the deep, little, tiny details that

Phil Rice 24:47
my favorite example of it, my favorite example of it, is when she first comes back to the red base with the blood all over her, and she's just come in, and she goes and starts to wash up. And then just turns and looks at her male compatriots in the room, just gives them a look. And then they all get up and leave and shut the door so that she can disrobe. Nothing said, not, not by her brilliant, brilliantly done. Um, yeah, she was silent the whole the whole film, wasn't she? I mean, we heard her breathe heavy, but I don't think she spoke at all. And I wasn't really clear whether it's because her character was mute or because she was just choosing not to speak. Works either way, frankly, but she was very quiet, but she expressed so much because of the way that they animated her, because of liberal uses of close ups to let us know what she's thinking. There was one very iconic shot where she's just finished some combat in this rather fully lit area, and suddenly you hear the sound of and the lights go down, and we're just left with a little bit of light shining on her face as she turns her head. Just beautiful, beautifully done, like and in her eyes, there's this sense of fear and a little in trepidation, and, okay, what? What's happening and, and yet, not, not cowering fear, right? The fear of a soldier. All communicate without anybody saying a word. That's just, man, you, you can't, I don't think you can teach that. That's just, that's a gift. Man, someone involved in this just, wow, wonderful, wonderful visual storytelling. I'm less impressed with the sound. The sound felt a little bit hodgepodge. There's a lot of problems with the mix, stuff that's too loud or too soft or too repetitive or not good positioning in the pan. You know, that could use some work on this, some serious work. But visually, I mean, there's, it's just a delight. It really is, and, and, and the visuals are so strong, and the the storytelling through, mostly through non verbal, through animation, are so strong, and the combat sequences, brutal as they are. I mean, they're, they're brilliantly animated and edited like the it's. There's a logic to them. There's a belief, a believability to them. In the context of this slightly cartoonish Team Fortress two world, the way that everybody behaves and the way that people fall when they are, you know, taken out of commission, and everything just feels like it fits and lays naturally in that world. And I don't know enough about this game to know how much of that is just a function of the engine and how much of it's custom animated, but I I suspect there's a lot of custom work that went on here to get those results. I mean, games, games are good and all, but, I mean, this was so precise and so picture perfect that it's frankly hard to imagine that the game just spits that out in a game that's essentially just a bunch of combat. You know, this was very artistically done. So, yeah, I liked it. No idea, really what the story is. And I don't know anything about, like you said, the even the general lore of the game, other than, you know, the game premise, there's not really a story to that. You know, there's not a story needs a why, and there's no why in the story of Team Fortress two. But what's interesting is this story doesn't even address the why question. And yet, I wasn't bothered by that, for some reason, just like you described Tracy. I just felt like I was just led along and I was okay, like that. For some reason I didn't need to understand that to enjoy this. Damien, you brought up a really interesting point about the red being the good guys. What's interesting is to analyze, because I got that message too. How? Hmm, how did they convey that? Like, what about, what about their actions identified them as the good guys. They're they're just soldiers, just like who they're up against, right? But there was something compelling that made you maybe the good guys isn't the right term. Maybe it's more about empathy, and they did something in this to elicit empathy. And I don't think it's just you. That it was a female lead, which is going to tend to for anybody who's not a jerk, it's going to attend tend to elicit a little more empathy. The idea of this, this feminine and maybe a little vulnerable character having to do these, these really hard, soldiery things we've talked about that about some previous picks probably a year ago, the one that was all the the cinematic footage of like Laura Croft and Last of Us and all that. And it was all these female leads, these, these, these very feminine women being put in these situations where they have to do things that typically you would only see men do in film, right? There was something like really moving about that. So maybe it's just that, but that doesn't account for that undeniable good guy vibe about the reds. Maybe it's the camaraderie that you want to assume that if, if people are treating their own like that, then they should. They are thought of by us as good guys, right? That's the way the good guys behave to each other. This is the second time, second or third time this month, I brought up Battlestar Galactica, if, if I haven't already betrayed what it is I'm re watching this month on Amazon. It's all up in my kitchen right now, but basically it's the difference between the humans and the Cylons, right? Why is Adama the good guy? Because of how he treats his people, because he cares, because he puts himself at risk to help them and the Cylons. You don't see a whole lot of that with them really, right? It's very black and white. So maybe that's what's going on with us seeing red as the good guys, is they did give us a glimpse of that with them, but that being said, there wasn't really anything in here that explicitly identified the blue teams as the bad guys. It's just that that's no they're behaving in pretty much the same way. We don't see their camaraderie because we don't get as much alone time with them. But you know the one, the one, the one guy who's down and is presumed dead, and he's there. You can see his eyes open, but his hat brim is covering it, right? Just a brilliant scene. And you can see his eyes moving and without him saying anything, we know what he's thinking. How do I get out of this? How can I turn the tables here? That's not bad guy behavior, that's not any that's not bad or good, that's just somebody trying to not die, right? So, yeah, really interesting. I don't know the answer. I'm asking the question, but I don't know the answer. Why did we think the red or the the good guys? It's not it's hard to deny that that's the feeling. But what led us that way? I don't know, but I love it. I love it. It wasn't it definitely wasn't anybody saying something that's explicitly good guy or bad guy talk, or it wasn't somebody wearing a black hat and a white hat or any of those tropes, nothing like that. Whatever was happening was much more complex than that, and much more subtle. I just love that. So my misgivings about the sound aside. Yeah, I totally would anticipate the second part of this film, because this The storytelling is just, it's just top notch. So really, really great pick, dominsky and Tracy. Thank you. I'm really glad this was recommended to us. It's, it's, it's really, really worth watching Absolutely.

Damien Valentine 33:52
To answer your first question, Phil, does the game have a law? I had a quick look because initially I thought the law was, there's a blue team, and there's a red team and they fight, and that's, you're right, that's how it started. Um, it seems like, because the game was so popular that there was demand for some kind of backstory to it. So there were some official comics that were published.

Phil Rice 34:21
Wow, really? Yeah, years

Damien Valentine 34:23
after Team Fortress two, yeah, it launched without a story on official intent, yeah. And I just, I found this article is quite an extensive backstory, which I'm not going to recite now,

Phil Rice 34:36
okay, well, let's, let's add that to the list of links for this episode. Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah. So the actual creators came back and added lore at fan request and basically set up some canon story, wow. And

Damien Valentine 34:53
then I've never heard, yeah, I think fans then added their bits to it, sure. Well, give them some. Run with, yeah, because all I knew is you had the two teams and you could customize the characters, but the two teams, the characters and two teams, are identical. I don't know that what they're called, but the only way to tell the differences to them is the color of their clothes. But they've got the same faces and the same voices, same menus and same weapons and all that. It's just that the outfits are different. So I don't think any thought was ever intended for story, until people ask, sure,

Phil Rice 35:25
oh, that's fascinating. I've never heard of something like that happening. Have you no as far as a game, you know, that was built that way, but then adding that on later, yeah, wow.

Damien Valentine 35:35
The story goes back to 1822, apparently. So there's quite a lot, a long backstory to the game. Wow.

Phil Rice 35:45
Yeah, send me that. Put that link on the board, for sure. I I'm very interested in that now, not because of the game, but because of this film. Yeah, it's kind of made me realize the the story and narrative potential that there is with these and I wouldn't have imagined that really, other than seeing dominsky film last month and then this one, yeah, it's, it's really kind of opened my eyes to a narrative corridor I had never looked down. Yeah,

Tracy Harwood 36:15
we've seen some really interesting films made in with source, really, haven't we this year? Yeah, which I which actually I wasn't expecting to because, you know, as we sort of said, you know, Unreal has been the go to engine, and yet, the best quality of the Machinima type content that we've seen has not come out of that quarter at all, which I think, you know, when we do our annual review. I think that will be a really interesting discussion that we'll have about what we've seen and why we think we've seen it in that way. But these films are brilliant. We've, we've seen, I mean, the, you know, the one, the one we saw Dominic's film, but we also saw emesis blue as well, which was a, right, you know, a feature length

Phil Rice 37:05
that was fantastic, brilliant, absolutely

Tracy Harwood 37:07
brilliant. And a whole load of others as well that we've kind of, you know, touched on. So it's by no means, you know, a unique sort of set of films. There's a whole community of creators that are getting stuck in with source, which is fascinating. I

Phil Rice 37:24
don't want to put words in his mouth, but I feel like that. This is one of those moments when Rick Ricky would remind us that good story in a game inspires good stories. Yeah, you know, and say all you want for Unreal Engine, it's got arguably some of the most beautiful, visually stories that we've seen. But the Unreal Engine environment itself does not inspire stories. So some that means that anyone who's going to make a good story in that they have to come with it in their bag already, right? Yes. And we've seen that there's the one I'm thinking of where it was the the female hover border set in the future. Oh, flight, yes, right? That was brilliant. But Unreal Engine didn't inspire that story at all. They just made it, you know, easier to tell it in a beautiful way. So, yeah, and Ricky. Ricky's always been an observer of that, that that's why he's so many are attracted to Red Dead Redemption. What an OP, what an opportunity rock star blew there, in my opinion, by not having movie making tools to some degree, Grand Theft Auto, that's the case. The story there is. It's a little harder to riff on, I feel like, then something with characters that may be a little bit more likable, but it's there. And certainly, you know, there's, there's countless other examples. And the world of Half Life, two just is some of the most exceptional will world building ever. And then, yeah, they they injected, late in the game, they injected some story into this and look at the result. That's amazing, because I mean, whether or not these films we've mentioned are directly inspired by that lore, very likely, very possible, they're not. But story breeds story, you know, so it gets you thinking about that game in that way. And I think the greatest counter example is doom. I've never, ever, ever seen a compelling Doom story based machinima. Never, because the original game doesn't have a compelling or interesting story? No, it's got an interesting premise, and it's not, it's not wholly original either. I mean, the whole evil coming through a portal thing, they didn't invent that. They just, they just did it well, but it's not enough to build on there, and there's no empath. Character at all in that, and that's the result, and he was, yeah, one of the most popular games of all time, and it's been had, how many different versions over the last couple decades? But no, I've never seen a fan made machinima in that it's about anything other than blowing shit up. Well, even the

Damien Valentine 40:17
actual official Doom movie, that was terrible too. I mean, had Carl open, and he's usually good, but there wasn't really any story for that either. No, it's awful. And it didn't actually, I know Doom doesn't have a story, but no, it didn't even stick to that. It didn't have demons coming through report. They

Phil Rice 40:35
did it as a zombie, basically, yeah, no, it was awful, yeah. But yeah, there was, No, it was not fertile soil. But again, that wasn't its strength, and it wasn't their focus either. I mean, when, when, when they were making the originals of these games, it was, it was John Carmack at the helm that had much more influence than John Romero. John Romero is a story guy. I think that's part and parcel. Why he pulled away and went his own direction when he did, because he's a story guy, for sure, and John Carmack is a technical wizard. He's a genius. And so his thing was, let's make the baddest ass graphics engine that the whole world has ever seen, and then we license it. And so really, Doom all every Doom game was really just, we get to watch their development of that as they innovate, innovate, innovate. And that's, you know, that's okay, but yeah, if you're after story. So yeah, this is, this has all been very interesting, wonderful pick.

Tracy Harwood 41:46
Great picks all month, actually,

Damien Valentine 41:51
yeah, I've enjoyed all the four films. Alright, that's it for us this month. Thank you to Phil and Tracy for joining me. If you'd like to talk about this film or Team Fortress to let us know about the law. If you want to talk about the law of Doom or the lack of it,

42:13
please, pew,

Damien Valentine 42:16
please send us an email at talk at completely com, and hopefully Ricky is having a great time terrifying people at this horror convention, and we'll be back next month with some more films, so see you then, bye, bye, bye.