Phil Rice 00:35
Music. Hello and welcome to And now for something completely machinima podcast about machinima, virtual production and related technologies. My name is Phil Rice, and I'm here with my co hosts, Tracy Harwood and Damian Valentine and generative AI Ricky Grove, hey, Ricky, how are you?

Phil Rice 01:09
That's just terrific. Thank you. So in this episode, we have two films to discuss. One of them is Tracy's pick for the month, and the other is Damien's pick for the month. And we're going to let AI Ricky choose. Now the two films are Damian's film is titled day of darkness, and Tracy's film, or day of darkness two, excuse me, and Tracy's pick is titled The Wanderer. The Wanderer is like, uh, Team Fortress two, I think vibe. It's a Source Engine film and day of darkness two is EVE Online. So, Ricky, that's all the information you do. Your processing thing. That's your training data set, Ricky. So all you have to do is just pick one of the films and we'll go with that first. So Ricky, take it away.

Phil Rice 02:14
Just go ahead and just go ahead and take it away. All you have to do is just, this is a binary thing, just zero or one. Do you want it to be this one or that one?

Phil Rice 02:31
It's just. All you have to do is just pick one. Just

Ricky Grove 02:37
snakes are not my friends. No, no, I find snakes to be abhorrent.

Phil Rice 02:44
Can you pick a film, please? I'm sorry. Sorry, everybody.

Phil Rice 02:53
I'll bleep that. Don't worry. Okay. Well, you know what Ricky seems to have some trouble deciding. And I guess that makes sense, because these are both strong picks. Let's, let's let that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. So let's start with Damien. Damien, your pick, go ahead.

Damien Valentine 03:17
So normally I I tell the story about how I came across this film, and I don't remember how I came across this film, because I saw it a long time ago. But what reminded me of it, I was working on air to the Empire, and working on this big space battle scene. And I was thinking about, you know, now I can control the ships and move the camera around, and, you know, never really be able to do that before. And I thought not many other mission films have done big space battle like this, either, and they've been very restrictive. And I thought, actually, wait a minute, there was a film I saw a long time ago that had this kind of feel, where the ships were moving and the camera was tracking them, but slightly off and shaking a little bit. And it was so well done, I couldn't remember what it was called, so I had to do a little bit of digging, and then I eventually found it, and it's called day of darkness two. Now the day of darkness one, but it's kind of it's in day of darkness one is set in EVE Online, but it's not really related to this story as such. So what it was about was the creator of the film Dyer Laura lothaus, lothris, I hope I haven't butchered her name. He created a number of EVE Online videos back in the height of the game, and he got the attention of the studio, CCP Games. I don't remember which film of his that got their attention, but maybe the day of darkness one, they invited him to the studio, I think it was for a day or two. So they flew him out to Iceland, where they're where they're based, and they let him play around with. Cinematic tools that they use for their own cinematics when they're creating trailers for the game. And so he could do whatever he wanted. He could save the footage, and then he would take it back home and edit it in his own time, because his time at the studio was very limited, so he created this story, which was based on the law of the game, some historical event that happened two years, about 200 years before the actual game takes place. And so there's a little bit in the comments that he talks about how he had to pick out ship designs that were very old because the idea that they would have been around 200 years ago. And he tried to, tried his best to figure out which ones they would be, and all that. He didn't know anything that was, you know, just been released in the time period of the game to be in this setting 200 years ago, to create this footage. And he put this together, and I'd say it's his best video. He hasn't really made anything since this video is about 16 years old, so it's quite an old machiner video, but it visually, it holds up really well, and in the comments section there's an HD version, but when you click on the link to the EVE Online website, that video page no longer exists. I found some other copies that people have re uploaded, but I wanted to link directly to the original creators version, which is not the HD one, but it is the original mission of creator. I think that's important to reflect that. But if you want to see a higher quality version, you can find that quite easily on YouTube. But yeah, when I watched this film originally, I was so impressed and blown away by this space battle you'd animated. Obviously, I'm interested in this kind of thing. And, you know, I watched it again for this, and I thought this really holds up just as well as I remember it holding up. You know, sometimes you can watch film that you haven't seen long time, and actually it's not quite the way I remember it. This does, and this is going to be my pick for the month, so I wanted to share it with you guys and share it with our community. So what do you think?

Phil Rice 07:08
Well, you mean, I have a, oh, go ahead, Tracy,

Tracy Harwood 07:10
well, I was going to say I've done a I've done a bit of digging. So do you want me to sort of fill in a little bit of the background as well? Which I which I think I can do, however, what I will start by saying this. I could not believe how old this was. Actually 15 years old, 2009 it was released. But for me, it's all about the cinematic music, this kind of big cinematic music, and also the quality and drama of the narrative description of the action and the voice acting by Stevie Ward, who was this, well, it turns out she actually did the tutorial for the game. So she was a professional voice actor, although it's got a glaring mistake in it, which I think is I, you know, it just really sort of shouted at me when she was speaking. Anyway, I thought the the editing and the action scenes and the narration just, just brilliantly well done. 15 years old, I couldn't believe it. It's, I think it's held together incredibly well. And I think incredibly well, clearly, because it is considered by the fan community to be one of the best cinematics ever created in the game, and it's still held up as an exemplar of its time. So the fact that you kind of brought it to us and sort of reintroduced us to it, I think, is it's it's really timely. Obviously, I'm not that familiar with this, this game, and I'm certainly not very familiar with the Eve storyline. However, the Chronicles, as they are known, are the short stories about different aspects of this kind of fictional world. And in this case, the story is about an aspect referred to as the breakout. And around the time that it was made, as I understand it, there were about 168 Chronicles, and this film was really an extension to one of those Chronicles, obviously fan developed. So it appears from the various discussion threads about the film that it's one of those films that has since been accepted as part of the game law, including by CCP. Now I tried to find out what happened to the Creator, because apparently, shortly after publishing this particular film, he just disappeared and his character was deleted. I did manage to find some of the background to the making of the film, though, and at the time Dyer lothrus, he kind of commented. that he had initially tried making the film in 3ds Max, with apparently hilariously bad results. And in fact, he then asked CCP if they could help him out with the locations and some of the complexes to use on city. Because he wanted to make it as, as I see you described as historically accurate to the game as possible. And instead of threatening him with a copyright claim, apparently what they did then was invited in, as you said, Damien, over to their offices to let let him have a tinker with the software that they actually use for making their own videos. And as a consequence of that, he was then able to use a cut down version to actually make the film. So he says, Without all he said at the time, without CCPs support, he would probably never have been able to make what he actually then made and put it out in the way that it that it it was actually put out. But also, on top of that they offered Stevie, the voice actor to do the voiceover for him. Who was actually one of the employees of CCP at the time. It apparently it took him several years to make it a project began in 2007. And obviously, it was only finally released late in 2009. Like I said, I think the mistake, the voice mistake, grinded is the word that she used instead of ground presumably. Turns out it was a mistake that Stevie made in the in the in the narration rather than something that he made. And apparently he said he just missed it when he was doing the, the the edit the response from the community to It was especially notable. Obviously, you remember it really well, even though you couldn't remember what it was called, I think. But I think at the time, what seemed to happen was that there were many in that community that called on CCP to hire him. Now, I found some suggestion that in fact, that is what happened. Although I never I couldn't actually find out who he is in real life, and what exactly his name is, or how long he continued to work for them. But obviously, you know, having his character deleted shortly after and him never producing any other films would strongly suggest that he hasn't got a relationship with CCP, and that was part of the deal. So he's probably the one that's made all the Eve videos, since I would have thought it's always kind of really cool, I think to hear that actually machinima pioneers, such as this guy clearly was ended up having a career, you know, with with a developer or, or going on to do creative work as a consequence of what they created as a fan of the game. And I think it would be really cool if we could actually kind of close this story out and sort of him come forward and say, right, this is what I ended up doing as a consequence of, of having created this, this massively influential film at the, at the time, I you know, some of the stuff that I found, I actually found it on the wayback machine with with some of the links, and you can download the film as a as an HD version using the web archive. So if you're, if you're really stuck, and you can't find it, I think, go back to the Wayback Machine see if you can find a copy of it through the through the back channels so to speak, from the old from the old websites, which all have links to it there's many many articles that actually have links to high quality versions of the of the film so although I don't think it is actually on the the the actual machinima archive that sits in the Internet Archive itself that Stanford put together I don't I don't remember seeing a copy of it there. But that's all I could kind of find out about it. So it's a really good pic. Really interesting of its time and, and especially interesting because of the career trajectory of the Creator. So thanks for sharing it. That enjoyed it.

Phil Rice 14:18
Yeah, I feel like there's that there's, there's two ways to there's at least two ways to evaluate this film and one is as an EVE Online film. And the other is just as a film. And I think as a what I mean by that is, is if you evaluate it as an EVE Online film, then you accept the fact that everything that you see is going to be from EVE Online. There's nothing additional except for maybe a little bit of not very Good camera shake at points, you know, some post production type stuff. But as a story generally, I found that I struggled because I wanted someone to connect with and you just can't connect with a hall. You know? And I think that what reading through the comments, there's a lot of people who were very, you know, I mean, it's an a very emotional story. You know, it's a kind of a, a classic hero trope of the captain going down with his ship kind of kind of story, you know, at one point, and some of the people in the comments, you can see that they really had an emotional response to it, but they were definitely EVE Online players. And I think it would be near impossible to get a real to get the same level of visceral emotional reaction to someone who isn't. Who hasn't invested imagination and emotion into that game world to where you the imagination, when you play EVE Online enough your imagination fills in that missing element and the sense of there being people involved comes to light, it's your imagination that brings that the game doesn't give you that really, you know, it's very much about space warfare and space combat and ships and dealing with thing at at this macro level. So that's, that's where I struggled with it. But even though I've played a little bit of EVE Online there's such a learning curve to master it that I've kind of shied away from it because the time investment to I think really master that game is more than I'm willing to put into it. There may even be monetary investment part of it too, that I haven't even gotten into yet. But I mean, it's a free to play game but obviously, there's there's things are going to be accelerated or improved. With some some paid options. It's an amazing the staying power of the game is amazing. Like it's still that community is still going strong. There's still a lot people that play that game regularly and have for a long time. So the level of detail in the game is incredible, just incredible. If it's a if someone's a kind of a fan of high hard sci fi or someone who's got like an engineering mindset, that game would just be you know, the perfect fit, you know, because the kinds of details in just an outfitting your craft and stuffs amazing anyway, that's that's kind of where I ended up coming away from production quality wise, I mean, it's just it's beautiful and yeah, it's hard to believe this video is 15 years old and having I've logged into the game within the last 60 days and I can tell you that it I mean it doesn't look visually lacking at all like it still I don't know if I don't know if it's evolved or upgraded much over the years I actually don't know because I'm fairly new to having downloaded the game but I mean just gorgeous looking. And this this this video is other than some of the post production stuff that the fake camera shake thing really is a personal pet peeve of mine it it bugs me but you know the sharp choices and just the beautiful way that this game lights things for you if you angle it right and stuff. The effects of the explosions and the combat and all that. I mean there's no denying it's just it's it's gorgeous but I found myself I found myself craving what a clear skies use of this would have brought that's how he solved that. He used clear he used EVE Online for his space battle scenes, right? Am I Am I right on that? Am I remembering right Damien? Yeah, he did. But he used Source Engine or half life two characters to bring the human feel and the result is I mean, of course clear skies. If you haven't seen that. Go find it and watch it stop. Stop watching this and go find that and watch it right now. It's so good. And you want to talk about something that will grip you and make you feel something clear skies wanting to my goodness. So maybe that's why Maybe having come from a, you know, a longtime appreciate or have clear skies that I came to this film. And notice that lack more than I might have otherwise. I don't know. It's hard to be objective about that. But I'm definitely well made. And it is a cool story that, you know, we all know several people who did machinima in in this era and then ended up Caterpie catapulting into into various careers. I mean, it's, it is neat. You know, I have mixed feelings on it, of course, because part of me still mourns the loss. Yeah, of that creative talent.

Tracy Harwood 20:52
And this is mine. Yeah, this was exactly the time when we talked about the great machine and a brain drain don't wait for the creators being absorbed by the developers. This is exactly that period of time, several

Phil Rice 21:08
higher ups at several companies all got the same idea at the same time. As far as this is a real, a real opportunity to this is a skill set we need on our team. That's kind of what they all said, and just smashed up and it's great.

Damien Valentine 21:26
You can talk about playing games because they tried to be cinematic. But oh, more than ever. Absolutely. When the camera angles are off. And it was weird and stuff. And then suddenly, only

Phil Rice 21:40
only Squaresoft was doing it. And they had a completely different department doing their cinematics. You know, they were they everybody wanted that. But they wanted to do it in engine. Yeah, like, like Squaresoft does now with fin Final Fantasy. So yeah, that's, that's what kind of set that bar so high is what? Square? Square Enix or xenex, or whatever their full name was the Final Fantasy developers. Yeah, they had these just ridiculous, beautiful cinematics. And then, and then not so great, you know, graphics in the game itself, right. And yeah, these developers like BioWare and others came along and just says, We should be able to merge those worlds now. You know, the tech has come along, that we can simultaneously bring the game quality up and have the two where it can also handle the cinematics and that yeah, these guys were all part of that wave. And now it's, it's just taken for granted. That's just the way it is. I don't think anybody's look at game of merit is doing pre rendered video cinematics anymore. There's just no reason to. It's it's so inefficient. And frankly, you can't get as good a quality out of that as you can out of the way when you get the graphics card to do it. Right. So they all figured that out. Yeah. And so it's neat that this was a story. We weren't aware of that of someone who who achieved achieved that. That's, that's really great. So yeah, I think it's beautiful film. I found myself missing the human connection part of it, and felt like that would have made it more powerful. I didn't recognise the voice actor. I knew I'd heard the voice somewhere before but I even though I've played the game a little bit, and I'm still in the tutorial stage, so I've heard plenty of her, but I didn't realise it. And maybe it just because I just assumed couldn't be this couldn't be the voice. I mean, yeah, yeah, they're just, they're just voice actors who will, you know, hire out sometimes. So that's great. Anyway, I'm glad you picked that. Damian. Ricky. What's your thoughts on this film?

Ricky Grove 23:53
I'm not a political person. But if I was I would probably be left. centre but maybe a little right of centre or below centre. Yeah, it's below centres where I'm probably where I should be.

Phil Rice 24:19
You know, I hadn't thought about that. That's that's an interesting take. Let's move on to Tracy's film. Tracy's film is titled The wonder why don't you tell us about it?

Tracy Harwood 24:32
Absolutely. Yeah, the wonder Source Filmmaker short film and it's by Dubinsky and it was released earlier this year as of March. Now, it said in the Team Fortress two world, our lead character is wandering through the landscape alone, says a theme this month. This guy has got no real sense of where he's going seemingly. There's clearly a war going on around him and, and he's on the run or he's hiding from others or the other side and others are trying to defend themselves or, or something like that is going on, in what appears to be this kind of post apocalyptic kind of environment. What's really interesting in this, I think, is the device of a female character. And she's dressed in a kind of homely way. And he uses it, okay, I think Dubinsky basically uses this, this female character to communicate what I think is basically the lead character, the male characters, humanity, I think that's kind of what's I think that's what what what she's there for, to connect back to a human life rather than this horrible world that you now inhabits. He basically follows this woman, or, or at least she is leading him through this world, this post apocalyptic world. I couldn't get sense when I started watching it of quite what what she was, I thought maybe she might be a ghost or an angel, or maybe a memory. We never really told exactly. Although, in the end, she is revealed. She appears to him at times of extreme danger, as if warning him of something terrible that is about to happen. But she also stops him from doing some things that would appear to me to be things that he might regret. So yeah, there's kind of this interesting relationship between this kind of male and this female. I think what I really liked about it was the editing. There's there's real violence in this, you get a real sense of the violence. And it's really graphic. Except for the fact that the way that it's communicated doesn't, really doesn't really show you the graphic nature of it, you just, you just know that it is graphic. And, and it's portrayed through these kinds of really frenzied scenes and they and these scenes are kind of shattered so it's almost like this guy is you know, he's lost his, he's lost the full sense of what it was he's done as he's as he's engaged in these, these these frenzied attacks, really, I suppose, is what you'd call I thought that was such a clever way of illustrating the kind of demonic nature of this, this horror of war that this guy's captured in really, it's, it's a very interesting way of portraying the characters emotion. Which, you know, it's kind of hard to get a sense of what the emotion is, because you never see a face of the character at all, but just just the way it moves, the way it behaves. And then these, these, this sort of frenzied stuff, and this kind of like fragmentation is almost like out of body in the way that it's represented. The other thing that I really liked about it is the use of colour, just absolutely fascinating. You know, he's using really dark blues and grey tones for the war and the wandering sense of it, and full colour and lighter shades for what is actually quite an uplifting ending to this horror story. And, and then the portrayal of this woman is maybe a bit in between the two. Not quite the full light shades, but certainly lighter than the, the the main sort of depiction of it. And then the other thing I really liked was the device of the crow. That's, that's been used. So you get the sense of a crow, which is long associated with death being being being in there as well. There are there are absolutely no words said in this the whole thing is told through music, which I think is brilliantly edited to fit the themes of the story. There are different musical tones and sounds associated with the different characters. For example, as a lighter a more upbeat tempo when the woman appears in the in the in the shot. I think he's, he's used. I think he's used that music incredibly well. I think there's one. I mean, there's there's one scene in it, which really stood out to me where there's where there's a fight. And he's used the beats of the drum in, in the, in the music as the the timing for the, for the, for the punches. I mean, it's it's beautifully timed. I mean, how on earth he did that. I mean, it's amazing how he's done it because the music, I don't believe the music was written specifically for the scene. So he's obviously tied the scene to the music, I think, which is an interesting way of going about doing it. Now he's, he's drawn on different inspirations for this. And what he says is, is drawn from games like 40k, Fallout, Metro and Stalker, but also movies like The Book of Eli, you really get a sense of kind of different inspirations, but not not in a, in a parody kind of way. So very interesting how it's been done, I think, the it's part of a series called Mission. And because I thought this one was so compelling, I was actually I actually watched others as well. I have to say, I'm totally blown away with the quality of this guy's storytelling. It's, it's really outstanding, I think. So if if, you know, if you get a chance, do watch the others. I think there's about five in the series, all worth watching different lengths, which I think is also quite interesting. Definitely recommend them. Now, just to say, in terms of Dubinsky, he's an animator and a machinima creator, He's, he's got some real chops in Source been. He's been making sauce films from for many years, I believe, is a really good interview with him in Mann Magazine, which was launched not not that long ago. And I'll put in a show notes. Link to that. So you can kind of have a have a look at it. But yeah, a bit of an overview. Bit of a set of thoughts about it. I don't know what you guys thought about it. Yeah.

Damien Valentine 32:19
So I was wondering, that other film that we saw with Source Filmmaker used to Team Fortress characters, like two months ago, the film noir kind of story with all the different characters, and it kind of goes off in three Well, directions. Emesis Blue. Yeah. And I was, what came to mind was, I never actually played Team Fortress myself. But the impression I got was, it's kind of a cartoony, it's violent, but in a cartoony kind of way to make it more family friendly. And it's supposed to be fun, and fairly light hearted, even though it's a team competitive kind of game. And what these two creators have done it, they've taken the characters and put them into some really dark stories and situations. Now we're going to talk about the other film, because we're here to talk about this one. But it says having the red and blue teams in a sort of comedy kind of aspect, like the game is, is still at that conflicts, because it's made into a very dark and serious kind of way. And you've got this main character with the mask, and he's haunted by everything's experienced in this battle. I'm assuming that location is one of the maps or several of the maps from the game they've used. And so you know, the fun aspects of it, he's just really ground down by with death and violence that he's seen. And for a moment, I actually thought, this is probably what the character, the actual characters feel, not the players who are having a great time blowing each other up. But the actual characters in the world are probably seeing it this way. Which, if they could, you know, feel that way that that's what we're thinking. And obviously, he's haunted by this nurse character throughout the film. And he has several encounters with the red team. Tracy, you talk about how the colours music, I noticed even the red team who are going to stand out with the red colour, their colours are muted against this environment, which I think helps portray that this is a war. And it's not even though it shows up at the red team. It's this is a darker, more serious story. And yeah, you don't need time he takes his mask off the cameras behind his head so you still can't see his face and then he puts the mask back on, which I thought was a nice touch to you. That kind of makes him you don't get to see him. You can feel what he must be going through. By the way he moves is so well animated that you You understand what's happening. There's a scene where he's starting a fight using a knife fight with someone, he's got an underground. And you're right. It's a very brutal way. But you don't actually see what happens, all you see is hand like this. Well, but this out there coming out of there to the screen, it kind of switches and it goes limp. And you'll see a pool of blood come off the side. So you know exactly what's happened. But you don't see it. And I think that adds more to the tone and violence in the fields. If we show it, no matter how well you animate, it is not going to have the same impact is not showing it. Because the way he did show it was so well done. There was one thing that I think maybe Phil and Ricky would be able to comment on this, the music was well done. I was wondering if maybe it needed a few sound effects. I'm not sure if that work or not. But that that's, you know, just talking about, you don't hear a stab sound. And I was wondering, would that have made it worse? Or is it better without? And I think I'll leave it to Phil into Ricky to answer that one, because you guys are the sound experts. But visually, it was so well done. And it must have taken a huge amount of work to to animate it that well, because I know that the Source Filmmaker is a very complex piece of software that it's not easy to, to pick up and use. And you know, to make something of this quality with it is it takes a long time to learn it. And then to actually put that knowledge to use, you know, to create film like this, and it's about nine minutes long. So that's a long as a long film to make something that with software that, you know, is very complicated. So yeah, I have a huge amount of respect to this filmmaker, I need to go and check out those other films in the series, which I didn't realise there were more so check out his channel and see what else he's done. Because definitely a lot of talent there. And I'd like to see more of it.

Phil Rice 37:03
Yeah, my very first note was could use some sound effects in some spots. Yeah. The use of music was was well done. For the most part, it wasn't composed for the film. It's he uses a paid music library called Epidemic Sound, there's several out are out there like fests. artless.io is one. And epidemic is another one that's very popular. Where you can get they basically offer you access to a library of high quality music. And it takes care of all the YouTube content ID, you know, stuff for you as part of your licence for it. So and this selection used several different selections. And yeah, there's some there's some points where it works really well like the the one Tracy highlighted, where the the hits, you know, seemed to be coordinated. I can't tell if that's part of the music track. Or if he maybe didn't augment it a little bit with just the booms because it's so precise. Yeah, I don't know how he would animate it to that music. And the chances of finding a music with those low end booms timed exactly like that. So maybe he had somebody layer something over for just the boom, and the underlying track at that point was just still either way the effect was great. Where I think wasn't as good is shortly after that. Right at the midpoint of the film, there's the the most graphic stabbing scene and I say graphic not gory, because that's what this film is. It does have a graphicness to it. That reminds me a little bit of the approach to violence in Leo Lucien days the beast or beast. Oh, yeah, no, that's an extremely violent film. But it's not gory. It's not bloody, you know, it's not there's no guts. It's not a slasher film. You know, and this this is that type of violent, it's graphic because well, it's animated well, but also the emotional impact of it. You feel to me that that's a that's a type of graphic violence that doesn't have anything to do with cuts and bruises, you know? So anyway, that most graphic stabbing scene horrific. And at that point, the music is just kind of still bouncing along with this. You know, this this rock action sequence. I don't know there's other choices that that could have been made there that that is a That's a definite low point for that character. You know, like, that's a massive that's a, you don't come back from it moment to lose it like that to get really, when war overtakes a person. And they behave like that. Maybe it was necessary, but it'll never be the same after that, you know? And for that reason alone for me, it's like, okay, something you know, maybe the music needs to stop. Maybe there's just breathing or with the stab sounds make it too graphic. I don't know. I mean, it's a it's a brutal scene, even to watch it muted. It's just brutal. Anyway, that at that point, the music wasn't appropriate. It just, it took me out of it. It's like, alright, if you're gonna take us to that dark place, go ahead and take us there. You know, not with the a bop and soundtrack. But for the most part, the the selections that he made were excellent. And the timing of them. The mood of them was apt, it's only that one central thing that really stuck out to me. I was a little uncertain. Even after the reveal, at the end, I was still a little bit uncertain about the identity of this woman. And it was it was interesting to hear your Tracy, kind of iterate through all these possibilities of memory ghost or something else? And because it's like, yeah, it's even after watching it reflecting on it. It's like, okay, so if that's a memory, just as one of the examples, is that? Is it someone that's back home waiting for him? Is it someone who's lost? Is it a love interest? Or is it? Is it his childhood memory of what his mother looked like? I don't know. There's like, I don't know. Did I miss? Did I overlooked? Something that made it made it obvious it wasn't his mom? Like, did they make out and I missed it or something? I don't remember that. But I just really found myself questioning what the identity of the woman was, it didn't detract from the film at all. Because because of the way that that character was used in the film, that the device works, whether or not you pin down specifically who that is or was and what happened to them or what didn't or mean, he could be schizophrenic and imagining her it doesn't matter for the film, the film, there's a certain role that that that female plays, which you highlighted already a lot of it, you know, it's there's times when it's almost like a Jiminy Cricket character to his Pinocchio, you know, like a conscience, like you said. There's other times where it's a source of comfort. This, this almost watching over him while he sleeps, whether that's really happening, or if that's, you know, what his his mental state is, is that there's a safety there. Yeah, the way that she's whisked away before he passes out near the end, I won't go further than that. On the ending. I hate spoilers. But yeah, it's a very mysterious figure. There's certain ways that the main villain of No Country for Old Men if you've ever seen it, the Coen Brothers movie, the main, the main villain in that Anton sugar. There are certain decisions that the director made, especially in the ending scenes of that film, where it left the viewer with questions of is this guy real? Is he a ghost? What? What is he exactly? You know, the scene in particular I'm thinking of is where Tommy Lee Jones, the old Sheriff shows up to the scene of the crime, and they kind of the shot sequence makes you think that the murderer is inside, but then he goes in and nobody's there. And so it's it leaves you with these questions, and they never get answered. Like they just don't. And, and yet, it works. Like it doesn't make no one says that's not a great film because of that, you know, they may not like it for some reason, they'd be wrong. But because it is one of the all time greats anyway. So the point is, those questions can be unanswered and it's still okay. It still works. And I think that's true here that that I think there's multiple valid ways to view this film with regards to who is that, that female character. And I think that the multiple ones can work, you know. So and I like that. We've talked in previous episodes about skillfully wielded ambiguity, you know, which is a much, much different effect than accidental or ineptitude, leading to ambiguity. You didn't think of it. And so it's ambiguous, or you just didn't write it good enough, or didn't get a second opinion or whatever. And so something's ambiguous. And then it leaves the viewer feeling dissatisfied. This isn't that. I get the impression that the, that the director of this film knows who that woman is. And the way it's played out, that's enough for me. You know, it'd be weird, it would play off totally different if she was just deliberately written to be mysterious and vague. And what I know there's there's something distinct there. He just chooses not to define it. And I think it was a very smart choice. Very smart. I love silent films, silent short works like this. I don't you know, I don't love everything from the silent film era in Hollywood. But I love what independent filmmakers like this, too. With a silent film, I think there's there's virtues of doing a film with no dialogue with no spoken words that are numerous. There's practical ones of the international appeal, the instant barriers that get crossed in terms of the audience that can understand this film, or that it can enjoy it and experience it. And also, I think, for a skillful storyteller, which, which Divinsky, clearly is,

Phil Rice 47:04
it's kind of a tying one hand behind your back, you know, Inigo Montoya in The Princess Bride, you know, I'm actually left handed, you know, it's, I'm not saying that he did to show off, but I'm saying that I don't know, it's like choosing to paint with a specific palette. You know, that doesn't mean that you don't know how to use other colours. But for this painting, I'm going to use this, this palette and restrict myself to that, or I don't know our whole medium is about working with limitations, right. But some of those limitations are imposed upon us by the engine by what we know how to do in the engine, things like that. And some of them sometimes you self imposed a limitation. And just like when a person has one of their senses deprived, the other senses heightened to compensate for it. I feel like that in this weird inverse way. A silent film like this. It the visual storytelling just pops all the more because there's no words in the way I don't know. I don't know how else to say it. But you get what I'm what I'm getting at. So there's so much to appreciate in this film. It's got a couple flaws. Most films do right? Every single one of my film has at least a couple. But it's wonderful. And yeah, Source Filmmaker is kind of notoriously challenging to work with. So there's just there's, there's a long list of reasons to respect this. This work and to and to look out for more from from Dubinsky. It's it's this is the kind of stuff we want to watch, you know, it's just, it's just good. It's just really good and moving. And, and the ending is a real surprise, and we won't, won't spoil it but pleasant surprise. Yeah. Did you feel that way about it too, like?

Damien Valentine 49:14
Yeah,

Phil Rice 49:15
it didn't. It did not. It did not seem like it was going to go that way. And yeah, well done. Well done. So we'll let Ricky weigh in now, Ricky, what did you think of the Wonder?

Ricky Grove 49:33
Have you ever made Banana Nut Bread? Oh, man. The worst part is waiting for the bananas to get rotten. They don't realise that the best banana banana bread is made with raw bananas.

Phil Rice 49:51
I'm beginning to think this wasn't a good idea. Yeah. Well, thanks, Ricky. That was insightful. Man. I miss the real Ricky. a lot. I bet you guys do too. Hey, we'd love your feedback. So drop us a comment or an email talk at completely machinima.com on behalf of myself, Phil rice and Damian Valentine and Tracy Harwood and the soon to be retired. Generative AI Ricky. Yeah, sorry, Ricky, you're, that's we need the real register back. We'll see you all next time. Thanks a lot.

Damien Valentine 50:28
Bye