Phil Rice 00:35
Hello and welcome to And Now For Something Completely Machinima, the podcast about machinima, virtual production, real time movie making and all that good stuff. My name is Phil Rice. I'm here with my co hosts, Damian Valentine and Tracy Harwood. Ricky is off. Just up to no good. That's all just up to no good. He'll be back at our next episode. So this week, we're going to talk about a film that is unreal engine short. We haven't talked about Unreal Engine and so long, I just thought we need to talk about Unreal Engine so it doesn't feel left out. This one is called for Forlorn. And Tracy, it was your pick. So tell us about it.

Tracy Harwood 01:32
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, another Unreal Engine. We've had a few this month that we've talked about and all have been pretty stunning. And this is probably another one that we can put in that category as well. It's an unreal short, called Forlorn. It's got its own social platforms. And it's being promoted under the title of project full on. It was created by a chap called Alex St Pierre and includes music by a guy called Toft Willingham. It's a little longer than some of the films we reviewed that focus on tech demos as creative projects, which is what basically this is, it's 11 minutes long. The film actually was released as a series before the final edit, which resulted in the 11 minute version, which we'll be discussing today. It's already won a bunch of awards and received honourable mentions from film festivals in both the US and Canada and it was released only in January. Now this creator St Pierre, he was the recipient of an unreal mega grant award. He's an animator and a VFX artists based in LA and Vancouver. He has credits on a bunch of well known films too, including the Flash, Black Adam and the witches, and is also the Unreal Engine supervisor, or the upcoming Captain America Brave New World Film which is due out next year. Now Toft Willingham is the music producer. He is also a screenwriter and filmmaker based in LA. He's the lead singer songwriter in a rock reggae band called Spiritual Res. He has produced and engineered over 30 albums and CO written with the composer. If I get this right I should be amazed. He's I was lucky. Who in whom he rotates. The hit Japanese anime show with called Blood Blockade Battlefront and also scored the Disney Animation Studio short film Elephant in the Room. He's also co written a screenplay with his brother, the animator James Willingham and the third, and the Disney animator Brian Scott. And then the other contributor to the project is actually Lindsey St Pierre, who is a Disney animator having worked on projects like Zootopia as a layout and story artist. So again, what we've got here with this particular film is another team with some real animation VFX chops. Now, the project did actually begin as a tech demo in 2018, and was first prototyped in 2019. With what St Pierre describes as a team of one plus a composer and a little bit of assistance with some rigging. He's used Maya to model rig and animate the characters which are all in imported into Unreal, where they've done the lighting and the rendering. And, you know, as I understand it, they've used off the shelf sets, using kitbash 3d packs, and also some mega scans to get some of the textures on the assets as well. And then as I understand that they've done the final editing in Premiere and the sound effects with a with a, you know, sound effects pack, and some home based foley as as, as I understand it. Now, the creator here as written about the lore of the world, on the project's website, which basically sets out what the world of Forlorn is about, which is focused on this central soul tree. And with quite a lot of detail you in that kind of lore described on the website that isn't it actually, in this film at all. So basically, they've got the kind of background to it. But none of it really makes sense in the context of what you see in the film on on the screen, so to speak. I guess what you've got, though, is that lore being set out for the future development of the project, Project Forlorn. In terms of what we do see, it has basically the aesthetic of a kind of Lara Croft type, storyline cross with an Indiana Jones type storyline set in the world of kind of an Elden Ring, Dark Souls kind of world. And the central character, I think, is quite interesting, because rather than having the usual realistic, meta human aesthetic that we might expect, with an unreal films of this kind of quality, it's actually got a 3d Disney look to it. The other characters, the other, the other souls in it, I think, probably the more interesting part of this, it's got sort of a creature that's a combination of a tree, and, and a human hybrid. And these trees, tree human things, that obviously designed to be predatory hunters in this scenario, and the humans are prey. So rather than the kind of tree beard of Fangorn forest, that we know from the Hobbit, it's kind of a little bit more gory than that. The quest is for some kind of stone, it kind of looks an uninspiring kind of stone, we don't really know what it's all about. And it's a mission that our heroine has been sent on by these kind of unknown others whom we only meet briefly at the end of the film. So there's a lot of, you know, introductions to different characters, there's all this lore. And a very simple kind of storyline to what we actually see. As it kind of unfold. It's, it's it, I suppose, really, it's got a kind of interesting aesthetic to it, it's sort of adventure, dark fantasy kind of cosmic horror in, in in genres, it's, you know, they've described it in that way, I can kind of get that that's what it is, it's maybe a little bit grittier than some of the typical studio projects that St Pierre might have worked on. But it's, I think it's more more familiar in the in the tale, or at least, there are a series of familiar tales that are stitched together that it draws on. And that may well I think, constitute a Disney pitch through what it is through what it is doing and, and what is being shown. So there, although that's not made explicit in this, and I think notwithstanding the grand plans, what I particularly liked about the film is actually that it kept me absorbed for the full 11 minutes because I thought when I picked it up, I'm never going to sit through 11 minutes of this kind of thing is it two or three minutes is kind of what I what I expect. It's what we're used to when we look at machinima type stuff. And actually, as I as I reflect on it, I'm not sure why it absorbed me for the full 11 minutes because in places it did feel a little disjointed, too. However, I don't believe it's really trying to be anything other than the kind of fun that it portrays if if, if slightly frightening in its quest. To me, it's clearly aimed at a younger audience or at least that's the sense I got from it. That it's primarily younger and and I got that sense because of the way the the lead character that female heroine if you like, looks she looks childlike, or appealing to children. Is it too dark for kids? I don't think so. doesn't really feel too Typically Disney ish, I don't suppose. But I have seen some moves go more towards the darker end of the Disney sort of spectrum if you like. I think at many levels, it's really easy watching. It kind of made me reminisce back to those sort of Saturday morning, kids TV programmes, and maybe what we've got here is a is a replacement for Scooby Doo. From from those years. So that's my take on it. I thought it was really interesting. Yet another example of an unreal, you know, development, I think I'd be really interested to hear what you guys have got to say about it.

Damien Valentine 10:46
This is probably my favourite film of the month, is it? Yeah. So I watched it, and I did get that Elden Ring vibe straight away from the, from the bits and pieces that I've seen from that game. But what really struck me was the the imagination that went into creating everything, because it's not that you first see the character, and she's got armour on and a helmet. So you think this is gonna be a mediaeval kind of she's got a shotgun, or a rifle? Yeah, it's actually this is different because the armour doesn't go with the weapons. Right? Yeah. So that kind of intrigues me. And then she kind of goes into this big game on this quest, and she's climbing through and she goes a big chamber. And this, these elements don't necessarily match up, but they've made it work. And then the creatures appear. And they're not like creatures, you'd expect that there's a lot of thought has gone into these designs as the first creature that she fights the really tall one. And then there's this other monster that appears that it's really hard to describe how it appears because it's I don't know, it's just such an elaborate design, it doesn't have symmetrical features. And a lot of work must have been spent to design it, and then to model it, and then to animate it, because this isn't something you could do motion capture with because you can't do motion capture for creatures that don't resemble the human form. So I don't really know that they did have unless they did it by hand, and it doesn't look like it was keyframe animation is stunning, the animated and the fight sequence between her and the two monsters. And when the two monsters are fighting, really breathtaking. And a lot of time spent on the rendering as well. So it doesn't, it looks stunning. And then, at the end, when you see the people she's been working for, they don't really like typical designs, either. There's a lot of work has been spent into making everything look unique to this world that they've created. And it kind of gives you the sense that this there is more to this world than what you're seeing in this video. Even though the video focuses on what she's doing, and the fights you get the sense of, there's more happening, just off the camera. And, you know, a lot of the films like like Star Wars, for example, you're focusing on the main characters, but the way the world is presented, you know, there's other stuff happening all around them. And this film is kind of the same. So it's not necessarily important to the story, but you feel like the world is alive and big. And then you mentioned that there's a law, well, that kind of goes with it that they've obviously developed as well. And they're telling one small story in it. But it's clear, they've got plans for other stuff, which I'm very intrigued to see. Because I liked the way they blended the modern than the historic and the fantasy elements into this very unique setting. And if they continue with creature designers like that, as well, that don't look like typical monsters, that there's a very different thing was that film Pan's Labyrinth that come comes to mind? And the creatures in that a very unique and it kind of has a similar vibe to that sort of a dark fairy tale and a story. So yeah, this is definitely my favourite pick of the month so thank you for finding it then sharing it with us. Glad

Tracy Harwood 14:40
you liked it. Phil, what did you think?

Phil Rice 14:42
Yeah, that's uh, you brought up a really great point Damien talking about and I didn't even think about it while watching it. But yeah, how do you how did they animate so effectively? Those some of those creatures it is a it It's one of those things that reminds you how much you don't know yet. Yeah. You know, I feel like I've learned a lot over the years, but boy, there's just volumes of stuff that I don't I don't yet get I, I couldn't begin to even theorise an answer for that. That's, that's fascinating. Yeah, there's definitely Dark Souls slash Elden Rings vibe. Particularly in the creature design, which I think for me is the highlight of this, this film. Because they are they're, they're they're, they're just they're not like what you typically see, you know, I feel like that the that the, the way they modelled the main character is just strange to me. Like, it doesn't really seem to fit with the rest of that, like, you factor that out and maybe, maybe tweak and grit up the characters at the end, you know, in that end, meeting a little bit. Then maybe it all fits into Elden ring, but that main character doesn't at all. It's straight out of a it's a Disney Pixar vibe for sure. So that was confusing to me even because I I found my mind shifting at various points when watching this trying to kind of contextualise what I was seeing. And up until she removed her helmet. I was definitely getting an Elden ring vibe. And then there were parts of me that stayed with that as they showed more different creatures and stuff. But when they showed her I got confused and like well, maybe this is more of a tomb raider thing, but then it just not really and and then the whole you kind of moved past it pretty quick, Tracy but I feel like that that nondescript treasure? Yeah, it's basically as what is it? What's the phrase of the term MacGuffin. It's just a device that's in the story just to move the story. It doesn't matter. It's just it's like, all this thought into the world building and these this creature design. And all we can get is just some Shiny Stone, I guess of some kind, like there was nothing intriguing. Or anything about that object that screamed, I'm valuable. I'm worth all this trouble. You know, and you don't really ever have that problem in Indiana Jones, or Tomb Raider for that matter. Whether you fully understand what the value of the thing is, it looks valuable. It looks important. It looks worth in de risking his life or Lara risking her life to go get. And this is just like that is just I don't know. So I found that odd given the amount of detail that was put into so many other aspects of it. What Why, why is that so plain? And I don't know the answer to that.

Tracy Harwood 18:30
And it wasn't revealed, was it? No, no,

Phil Rice 18:34
it was literally a MacGuffin. Like the what what they call a MacGuffin, which is just it's just a device, a storage device that for whatever reason, we're not going to invest any. I mean, it's a static object. It doesn't even have to move how how hard would it be to make it into a little even imitate some from Tomb Raider make it like a golden statuette with an emerald in its belly or something. But no, nothing. Just

Damien Valentine 19:04
you mentioned Indiana Jones down, I'm thinking after this film, that stone is going to be shipped off to a warehouse like the Ark of the Covenant. See, I can that's that's that's it.

Phil Rice 19:14
Yeah. But did you get when I get it? Okay, so the object so maybe the object isn't important for the, for the overall story arc or for the world they're building. But humorous, you know? So you never talk about it again, but make it something that we talk about. What was that thing? You know, wow, what happened to that thing? That thing was beautiful. I can see why she wanted that. There's no sense of that at all. It's this sense of what are you doing here? You know, so sound design. Sound design was really interesting on this. I feel like I don't think this is actually the case. But I feel like that if this was the case, we wouldn't be surprised that there Are two sound designers in this one did all the sound design for the quiet, subtle moments in this short, and that person is a master. And then there's a separate sound design person that was in charge of all the big noises. The creature whooshing, its sword and the things falling and the stomping on the ground, that person needs to work with the first person more on what they just want. So there's so the end result is this mix of in the quiet subtle moments of this, the sound design is just delicious. It's so good. Like, I mean, row, row quality, but then when it gets into the battle even the creatures scream when the creature gets struck when she's fighting it, you know, and a creature gets injured. And the scream is just kind of this this anaemic, very thin sounding, you know, give this thing some gravitas, you know, make it make it make it scary or something. I don't know, it's I guess in that regard, it doesn't compare as favourably to Elden Ring, or to a world like Elden ring. Because in that, when you're facing a big badass, something, it sounds like it too. It doesn't just look like it. It sounds like it you're fighting some I've seen scenes where you're this warrior and you're fighting this giant. And it feels like it it's like Shadow of the Colossus or something. I mean, it's just it's this huge movements, the air moves when they move and when they roar. It's wrong. You know, it's this giant sound. And I know that the creature she was mainly fighting wasn't wasn't like a pro wrestler or something that wasn't big and muscular. But it was big. And it apparently was powerful. And it just the sound really let down the side on that. I feel like so that was a little confusing. Such a distinct difference in quality and effort. That I can't help but wonder if there weren't two different sound designers built just as just a theory.

Tracy Harwood 22:31
Well, you know, you say that there was a sound effects pack being used and additional foley from a home. Okay, you've definitely you've There you

Phil Rice 22:42
go. Yeah, that would expect I bet if we're not going to work together. If it sounds Yeah, it would. Yeah, and I don't know I'm in Ricky's the same way. I think too. We're we're real. sticklers for good sound, you know, like, we know it, when it's there. We really celebrate it when it's not. So I loved on the plus side of the sound design. In the final meeting, there was the one character who had kind of a metallic sound to their voice. That could have been done a little better. But it was nice. It was easy on the ears. It it just conveyed something. It was a different sound. That was that character's voice was really well done. I like the fact that the protagonist, the lead character that she didn't say much throughout the whole film that that is yeah, a plot that creates some intrigue about her some mystery about her and that was very effectively done I don't know it I don't know even what she what she would have said but like even at the very end when they're kind of saying you know we'll be in touch and she just just kind of waves or gives a salute or whatever what she did there at the end doesn't say a word doesn't even look around. It's like alright, I'm interested in that character. I just I'm not as interested in how they chose to render her because it does it feels she does give the vibe of Saturday morning cartoons or Scooby Doo or something or Yeah, even if you if you were doing a kid's version of Tomb Raider or something like that, but the rest of it is almost Gothic Horror, you know and and if you're gonna have gothic horror in it, then why not make that consistent, put some dirt on her give her some grit give her an unusual face or really piercing eyes or, I mean make her look tough make her look like she's been through. Something and instead it's this it's almost Tinker Bell. I mean, I hate to be, I don't want to be all condescending, but it just, it just didn't fit for me like that, that it's like that character was designed by a different artist than most of the rest of the, of the film. Certainly different from the other characters. And I think the reason that that's maybe a shame is because I mean, go to go to art station, or DeviantArt, or one of those websites where, you know, people are designing characters or even look at some of the stuff that people are doing with AI generated characters. And there's so much more interesting looking. And, you know, if they were concerned that the, the character needed to be beautiful, are something well, you could still do that. But, you know, I don't I don't know, I think it's not that the character needed to be ugly or unattractive or something. It's just, you know, a little bit more interesting and a little bit more at home in that world would have made more sense I think, and would have kind of crystallised, okay, this is where we're at wherever it is, because we don't really know, right, they haven't really told us too much. But visually, I if I came back to this place, I could identify it, you know, that kind of level of recognition. And I feel like that, that her design was just, it's just a little too smooth a little too. Smooth off edges, you know, a little they sanded her down too much or something, you know, it just so yeah, overall, I'm very intrigued. I would love to see more of that world. Those creatures are amazing. The half something half tree, again, in a great moment of sound design there when it flops onto the ground. And it sounds exactly like it's supposed to, you know, really great stuff. But there's, there's just, there's a couple elements of it, that it's it's just like, what were they thinking there? And I don't know, you know, that the MacGuffin stone and the main character. And then just, you know, get some, some sounds, I think that are more appropriate for those bigger actions.

Tracy Harwood 27:33
It's a perfect Disney pitch? Yeah,

Phil Rice 27:37
yeah. Well, yeah. See, I don't know. I'm trying to think about okay, if I think about this film as a pitch it certain things are going to appeal to, to certain audiences, you know, I mean, if you if this thing was fully in the Elden, word, world vibe, then you're hoping somebody on the panel you're pitching to is remembers the the so called dark days era of Disney when they really ventured out and did some interesting stuff in the early 80s. Remember, you remember Something Wicked this Way Comes? Oh, yes. That was a Disney movie. Yes. Have you ever seen that? Damian?

Damien Valentine 28:18
Yeah. Long time ago. But yeah.

Phil Rice 28:22
One of the scariest movies ever so good. Yeah. Oh, what was the I can't remember the name of the actor. The it was an old very classic actor who played the grandpa had that. I can't remember his name now. Oh, so Jason, something wonderful, wonderful movie. You know, but this is, it's like, all of this fits into, to tapping into that Elden ring vibe, which is very popular, especially amongst teens and young adults. I mean, that that, that vibe, that game, they're they're people who play a game like that, like Ricky does. They they seek out other stuff like that. There's something about that, that decay, decaying world. That just is part of the Zeitgeist right now for them, you know, it just really resonates. So they they're on to something there. But you know, to put you know, a character from Pixar in the midst of that, to me, it's just confusing. It doesn't it doesn't quite make make sense. So, yeah, there's a lot to like about this for sure. And the production quality overall, factoring out decisions. I might disagree with the polish the sheen on this. I mean, it's really good. Really, really, really good. Really well made. So yeah, I guess that's where I come down on it is I questioned some of the decisions in the production. But in terms of was this quality? Oh, absolutely.

Tracy Harwood 30:09
Jason Robards.

Phil Rice 30:11
That's it. Yeah. Oh, he was just he was wonderful in that

Tracy Harwood 30:16
I have to look him up when you're saying I couldn't remember either. Yeah.

Phil Rice 30:19
It makes me want to see that movie. Yeah, yeah. It's just the whole, the tornado and all of that. Oh my gosh, I still can't believe I watched that on the Disney Channel. On cable when I was young, I can't believe that's a Disney movie. It was so scary. Oh, it's so effective. So anyway, yeah, that's, that's, that's my take on it is a lot to admire here for sure. And just parts of it a little confusing. Brilliant. I'm the host. Sorry. I'm just waiting just, well, what are we doing now? Ah, yeah. What do you guys think, listeners? Watchers, what do you think of this film? Watch it and let us know. Like you Tracy. I, I also I didn't have any trouble in spite of my misgivings. I didn't have any trouble making it through the 11 minutes of this. And I thought I would. I thought sure I would. But now it did wrote me in so you know, maybe they were more successful and I'm giving them credit for what are you listeners think? Let us know at talk at completely machinima.com or drop us a note in the comments. We'd love to hear from you. On behalf of my co hosts, Damian and Tracy and in absentia Ricky. We will see you next time. Bye bye.