Phil Rice 00:18
Welcome to the Completely Machinima Podcast. I'm here with. My name is Phil Rice and I'm here with my co hosts Tracy Harwood, Damian Valentine. Yes, sir. Just a reminder, we're changing up the format a little bit now to where the emphasis on news is going to be over on our blog. So, Ricky, if you want to mention maybe some of the highlights of what's going to be coming up over there very soon.

Ricky Grove 00:47
Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of news. We put together a lot of stuff. There's a very entry, the primary focus is on AI generated art. That's been a huge issue in the last couple of months with the release of several new AI generation tools. And Getty Images has come up with a specific policy about not using any of that, although they, they very carefully state that you still Photoshop images where you're using photos and combining them as okay, but they draw the line at that AI generated art. We want to talk about the implications for machinima. Also, there's a really interesting film, that combined live action with AI generated art called The Crow. We just love that film. We'll embed it with the News archive, and then lots of other little pieces with Omniverse machinima, virtual production with Unreal. And Linden Labs, interestingly, is coming up with a puppetry project where you can pop it in real time with your Second Life characters that I think is really, really interesting, nice. And so check out our blog, Completely Machinima dot com. And we'll have a whole list and links for all of the news.

Phil Rice 02:13
Tracy, we're gonna come over to you. We've got some interesting feedback from our listeners of the podcast. Why don't you tell us about that?

Tracy Harwood 02:19
to hear that. That's just a brilliant little film. Absolutely.

Tracy Harwood 02:19
Absolutely. We've got feedback from every film that we, on every film that we featured last month. And first up Friedrich Kirschner, whom I have to say I haven't heard from in about 100 years, got in touch. If you remember we talked about the film that he created called person2184. Which was this fantastic mod that he made that was released when we couldn't figure out when it was released. And he's cleared that up for us. He said person2184 was released in 2005. And it was premiered at the Machinima Film Festival that year. I must say it was lovely to hear from him and didn't really get a chance to say what he's up to now, but we look forward to hearing from him again soon. So yeah, that's really cool. Yes, absolutely. We, if you remember, we also talked about a trailer for a Warhammer 40k film made by Erasmus Brosdau called The Inquisitor: Prologue. And if you remember, we were looking for the full version of the film because we couldn't find it. Well, Erasmus got in touch and said, the film was never completed, because of licencing problems. In the end with Warhammer 40k, he said, the project became so big, that it was problematic to continue without official support. And even while it was more than tolerated at the start, it was never officially supported or endorsed. I must say, I was really sorry to hear that being said, these kinds of projects are perfect argument really, for why platforms such as Unity and Unreal Engine and Godot and, and various others are great future options. He also said his film was rendered in CryEngine. And I must say, I think I'd certainly like to encourage him to continue to develop new projects and I hope that the experience with this one hasn't killed his enthusiasm for the storytelling that he's clearly quite good at. So that's that's, that's from Erasmus. And then Martin Bell got in touch. He really enjoyed our review, and says he's definitely making more stuff, especially for you Ricky. And he'll be in touch as and when. I can't wait to see that - it's really nice to see that Prazinburke Ridge is also attracting an awful lot of media attention to now which is which is fantastic. Miles Since done, loads of follow up interviews so you can find out more about that project and his creative processing. Oh, glad

Tracy Harwood 03:18
And also, we've heard from Mark Coverdale, one of the two creators of Facing the Wolf. He's also got in touch to say how much he enjoyed our review and feedback on what he says was the first poetic machinima they'd ever created. He particularly enjoyed how the film provoked us to invoke Wilfred Own, Nine Inch Nails and Bertolt Brecht. Yep, that's our eclectic tastes. So it's great to have you all interested in what we've been talking about on the on the

Ricky Grove 05:45
great, I'm so glad - we were we were very honest in that discussion. That was, that was a discussion that stayed with me for a couple days. Yeah. But I think we really got to the nub of that. And it's partly the fact that we've been doing this for over a year, and we're comfortable with each other. But also the fact that we have three different ways of looking at the world, or four different ways of looking at the world. And I think that all came, became clear, as we were talking about this provoke provocative film, and I bet you, the filmmaker was secretly very happy that he created such a kerfluffle.

Tracy Harwood 06:23
Absolutely. And that's it, I've got no more feedback.

Phil Rice 06:30
We encourage those of you out there who would like to give us feedback of any kind, we of course, welcome that. There's several different ways that you can do so all of which are available on the talk section of our website, which is Completely Machinima dot com.

Phil Rice 06:51
So we're gonna jump into talking about a film selection that I made this week. And it's, it's not our normal type of pick, we usually focus on actual productions. This is more one about learning, production, which I found very valuable. And a good reminder of some principles related to that. The the video is titled How I Learned Unity Without Following Tutorials. It's the first in a series of these that he does, but this one I felt like was the most fundamental and valuable.

Ricky Grove 07:30
What's the creator's name? What's his name? Let me see.

Tracy Harwood 07:33
Mark Brown.

Ricky Grove 07:36
Yeah, Mark, thank you. That's marked

Phil Rice 07:39
I'm Mark Brown and I am making my own video game. Yeah, that's alright. So yeah, basically, he is he's walking through his process that he went through to try and learn Unity, the Unity 3d platform for the purpose of making a video game. And he started out knowing almost nothing about the platform and wanting to learn it. And if you're either new to this craft, or perhaps you used a tool for many, many years, and then it got abandoned. And so you're forced to learn a new platform. I don't know anyone like that, but maybe you do. And so it's a matter of okay, so how do I, how do I get started here? How do I learn and just one look on YouTube nowadays, and just about any skill related to this area that you would want to learn. There's tonnes of tutorials out there, there for I mean, it's computer programming, you can go and there's a course learn Python in four hours, boom, there is any 10 different projects that you build. And they've got those for Unity, they're out there for Unreal, there's some for iClone there's some really good tutorial makers for iClone. But the most common type of tutorial that someone will gravitate to is one that is comprehensive, so to speak, at least comprehensive of the basics. So it's, you know, nothing's we're going to go through everything every single step. And then we're going to make these these projects, one or more little projects to show you how the platform works. And what Mark described in his video was a phenomenon that I've encountered myself, which is he went through one of those for Unity and you know, had probably I imagined he had some kind of a dual monitor setup, where the tutorials on one screen, and the applications open on the other and that to do this, alright, I'm going to click my mouse on that and boom, boom. And at the end of it, he has a working little mini game there. And then what he describes in this video is, then I went to make something of my own. And so I opened up Unity with a blank slate and realised I didn't even know where to begin. I know that's like I And, exactly, it's it's such a true phenomenon that, that style of learning, we're just go through and and click on what they tell you, too, does not always yield. Yeah, any level of mastery of the platform. I think that's completely true. And I'm not an idiot, I mean, I, I've been doing this a while. And I've got a halfway decent brain, I think. But that is exactly my experience when diving into a new platform and trying to follow along, so to speak, yes, with someone else creating something, at the end of that usable info for starting your own creation is very lacking. And his solution for that I found very interesting, which is to think of things in to tackle things in smaller parts, you know, to focus on a particular task, and learn that completely. And then move on to another thing. So if we're looking in the context of say, iClone, for example of Alright, so what I'm going to learn first is, how do I create a character that I want in using Character Creator 4? It is still Character Creator 4 right? Yes, yeah, number now I've lost track I've been,

Ricky Grove 11:20
they've been teasing five, but it hasn't come out yet. So creating the character,

Phil Rice 11:25
and taking that on as a task, and really learning everything there is to know about that. And then maybe the next thing is, I want to learn how to, I want to design a set of some kind. And frankly, that should be broken into smaller parts, if you ask me because an exterior set is a completely different endeavour than an interior one, right? And there are tutorials for those things, too. But they aren't the ones that necessarily come up in your search. When you're searching for. How do I learn iClone, you know, from the beginning, you're going to find those very lengthy and comprehensive tutorials. But that ended up. I don't think that for all people, maybe for many people, that those jive with a process that's going to yield retention of useful information. It's certainly a good way to do an overview and see it but to actually learn it. I found that his approach very much is what I've found true as well. And not just for Unity, or iClone, or unreal, but even in terms of learning if someone wants to learn how to use music software, which I've had to do at various times over the years, even though I've been a musician for forever. But, you know, that didn't make me any kind of expert in how to use Cubase as a multitrack. Or, for example, to compose music, or how to get the right sound out of virtual instruments. And yeah, the tutorial that goes through every single aspect of that it's just too much information. So his focus seems to focus on the tasks you know, you need to do that you need to know how to do and master those one at a time. And it's very smart. And it's also not new. That idea, I don't think, but I think I needed to reminder of it. Because it's very easy to get overwhelmed and how demoralising it is if you watch an eight hour video of someone showing you everything there is to know about how to make something with Unreal. And then you just go Alright, now I'm gonna make my little film. Where do I start? I think that's a very real phenomenon.

Ricky Grove 13:37
Yeah, the issue is, is that you learn the detail. But you don't learn the concepts. Yes. Of how of the workflow. You don't learn the various components of it, you just learn. You follow it by rote. I also think there's another factor in there that with this fellow has said he's a good teacher. Yes, you can go to YouTube, we got many other places you can get 100 tutorials on how to use Blender, 100 tutorials on how to do Unity. But really, there's only a small percentage of the people who are good teachers because they in their lessons, they give you the concepts first. And then they do the details. So they actually practice that process you've been describing in their tutorial. So when you finish with them, you can come back and you go okay, at the start. And if you need to, you can go back and rewatch just that section and then jump into it. But you're absolutely right that I've had it happen and it's really demoralising, because you feel like you put all this effort into it. And then you're just like, what are we doing?

Phil Rice 14:46
I think there's that and I think also there's a sense of if someone is highly experienced with a tool, but maybe not as good a teacher. They'll leave out they'll assume so certain knowledge, yeah, you just can't assume for someone new in that example that that I think of is a lesson than I learned back in. One of my teachers in elementary school did this experiment when we were in like third grade. And they said, Alright, I want you to he put a jar of peanut butter, and a jar of jelly and a knife, couple slices of bread and a plate, said, Alright, I want you to document the steps to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And so the person would do it, and I'd write down, you know, and then the experiment would be, take those instructions that that person had written down and give it to someone else. And their instruction is do only what is written on that paper for your instructions. Nothing else. And yeah, it was alarming. How much stuff such as unscrew the top of the peanut butter jar was left out. You know, it's a silly and kind of childish example. But it's a it's a principle that's really stuck with me that that there are things that if you get really good at something, you tend to just assume everybody knows how to do those things. Yeah, so a really good, I think, a good educational resource for these kinds of very, very complicated softwares that we're using for this stuff. I mean, even if you're making it in a game, it is so complicated. So yeah, the those details matter, those those small steps matter. And yeah, you're right, Ricky, it's, it's, you know, there are tonnes and tonnes of tutorials out there. But you're right. It's a small percentage, that are really good quality instruction. And I think there's several principles to that many what you you mentioned there, yeah. So

Tracy Harwood 16:52
Shall I come in, please. I saw I thought what he got is really bearing in mind on an academic and a teacher, really, really solid advice. You don't learn everything all at once. And I'd really go along with that. What you do is familiarise and experiment as you kind of go along, so you're figuring out what you want to do. And then he says, using tutorials and Google and asking people and you make use of whatever you can, but basically what you're doing is bootstrapping new knowledge onto existing knowledge. Yeah. And it's a really good way of reinforcing what you know, just to your point about making a peanut to peanut, what do you call it being like butter and jelly sandwich, which I have to say sounds absolutely disgusting. No.

Ricky Grove 17:41
Over there, man,

Tracy Harwood 17:43
we don't do those things. Lemon curd, lemon curd. Right now.

Ricky Grove 17:48
God, we separated from the UK back in the Revolutionary War. Oh, God. Anyway,

Phil Rice 17:55
thank goodness for the Boston peanut party.

Tracy Harwood 17:59
Absolutely. But then then it makes some other really interesting points, which I just kind of want to sort of reflect on a minute. He talks about repeating what you do. And then he talks about plagiarising the works of others to learn best practice. Now, if you remember we, we had a discussion about that. A couple of months back when we talked about the guy that had made the opening scene of Top Gun in that flight sim game. And basically, what what Mark Brown in here is saying is reverse engineering what someone else has done, and then creating something like it with the smallest possible steps, you can so that you can recreate what they've done is is potentially really very helpful. But he's, I think he's kind of missing the point that I was trying to make back back a couple of months ago, really, which is not, it's not really cricket sort of more, it's certainly not cricket in industry to make the same as somebody else has already, I think you've got to think about how you add your own stamp to something. And then he also says, You've got to figure out what the key component is in the making process. And in his report, what he's talking about is that not all of the components have equal weighting. So he's talking about making games, and he's saying that the, the underpinning thing is the interaction design on which all these other components sit, and that I don't, I don't think that's necessarily the same kind of thing that you would think about when you're making a film. But I guess the point is still very relevant. You've got to figure out what is the key component on which every other bit of it sits. So you say you take that as a kind of a key point. He also makes the point about creating a prototype and testing it very quickly with I'm assuming what he means a pot is a possible target audience. Now, if you if you think about this probably, probably this is something that most machinima creators do very well, if they're embedded in it in a community, because it's rooted very much in in machinima, the fact that you, you create something in real time you pre viz it, you test it out that way you share it and get some kind of feedback on it. And what we're seeing now, given that we've got more professionals in this arena than we've had before is people sharing more work in progress type shots, which don't seem to me to be the same kind of thing as what, what he's referring to as prototypes, but I guess it's, you know, maybe more more concepts that are being shared to your point, Ricky. But the prototype idea, I think, is quite, quite useful. And also, I think what people are doing now more than more than they ever used to is sharing tutorials as a way of showing prototypes is that is that an aspect of machinima too Now it may be is the analogy of game game development and machinima creation does however, kind of broke down in a few places. But maybe what you need to do is hold on to the fact that you're using a game engine, and you're creating a game world in which you are then going to film. So what you're doing is combining these kinds of unique techniques if you like. So you are, so you are in effect, creating an interface design, but with filmmaking processes mixed in it, which is kind of different to what he's referring to in this in this video. What I particularly like with this approach, is something that he sums up in the in the video too, which is the emergent nature have aspects of the creative process, through through what he's suggesting. You can try new things, explore new ways of doing things and just see what happens. And in our, I guess, in our filmmaking, machinima world, it isn't something that you can just storyboard at the outset. But mainly because what we're talking about here is using real time processes, which are really quick and dirty, creative techniques. And it's something that filmmakers have used machinima for for many years, including professional filmmakers. It's something that we've commented on again, and again over the years fact that you can prototype bits of film content using machinima. But what's different now, I think, is the fact that we've got really high quality graphics and almost rendering in real time as part of a virtual production technique, which is slightly different to how it's, it's been in the past, and our world of machinima is rapidly changing, I think.

Tracy Harwood 22:57
But what I will say is this kind of approach that he's talking about is something we very much do in teaching processes. Certainly, it's what we do at university, this idea of bootstrapping things onto other things that people are more familiar with. But the bit about building the experience loop is, is absolutely the most important part of this. And it's the thing that tends to get pushed by the wayside, I think in education, primarily because it's down to the, to the learner to do it on their own. And they don't often they leave it, or, you know, they'll go out and do a job, and then maybe they'll need to revisit it at some future point. But they don't often do the practice bit. And I think that's a point that's very well made by Mark in this video. So really enjoyed listening to what he had to say. And it's great not to hear the same kind of comments out of an academic mouth, but somebody that's actually they're doing it for real.

Phil Rice 23:54
Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead,

Ricky Grove 23:57
Ricky. good insight, I really like your perspective on it.

Damien Valentine 24:02
Tracy kind of picked up on the point I was gonna make, which was about how he talks about basically copying an interesting game and how we talked about that with Top Gun. So instead, I'm going to talk about the prototyping aspect. I do something similar with especially Heir to the Empire everyone who knows me knows that I really into Star Wars, and I've read all the books and everything. And I have a friend her name's Freya, and she is exactly the same. She's read all the books. So anytime I'm making a an obscure aspect of, you know, a character doesn't appear very often. There's only paint in the book. So you've got no visual idea other than description, the book, I will create the character, whatever it is, I will send it to her and say, Do you know what this is? And if she says yes, and she knows what it is, I know I've done a good job of recreating this thing. And if she says no, then I know I've got to get back home. And yeah, and the other part of it is, I stream some of the 'making of' live, I'm doing something. So I had this one room, I built the model of the room and I put the furniture in it. But I didn't know what kind of lighting to put in it. So what I did is I streamed it. And I asked for the audience feedback, 'what kind of lighting do you think this would work with this', and I explained what the scene was, and you know who the room belongs to. And they go with purple lighting, because it suits the character, he would go for this more exotic lighting. It's Lando Corzine went to the place. And so I listened to him, I put it in, live on stream, and it worked. And that's what ended up being in the actual filming. So this idea of prototyping, okay, he's talking about video games, it's a new, do it differently. But as far as film goes, is easy to get feedback from people that you know, and trust to have an idea like my friend, Freya, she knows all the content. So she's a natural person to ask, or the audience just watching the stream, they could see what's looking good. As you experiment into the colours, and they give me some ideas that I hadn't thought enough. So yeah, it's worth doing.

Phil Rice 26:16
Yeah, I really liked his discussion of that. prototyping and reverse engineering. It made me think of, yeah, that Top Gun, one we'd looked at and many other times over the years, I mean, even going back to, you know, early days when Hugh Hancock and company, you know, tried to recreate as a scene from The Matrix, for example, and stuff like that. And that's what that's precisely what he was doing there. He probably had additional motives, given his position in the community at the time. For him, it was also about demonstrating to everybody else, look at what can be done, you know, but I think from a personal learner's perspective, yeah, that's, that's valuable. I mean, I look at my earlier days of making music. And as soon as I got my hands on a keyboard that could make, you know, more than just piano sounds. Yeah, I found myself, you know, trying to recreate the sound of a particular track of an artist that I liked, not so that I could then put that out there as, you know, my name on it like theft or anything of that sort, it was, okay, now I know how they achieved that particular sound. And I can use that I can extract that from their context and use it in mind and yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it is, it's a valuable part of the learning process to do those things. And the difference is nowadays, you you do that, and then other people can see it. You know, what, what was your self education on? Okay, how did you know something as simple as I can remember the first time we got camera control of any kind in machinima. Everyone's obsession was what field of vision tricks can I do to record that Roy Sncheider seen from Jaws where he heard that word? whatever that's called, there's a technique

Ricky Grove 28:16
where we do Xing in and then pulling back at the same guy. Yeah,

Phil Rice 28:20
yeah, there's, there's a term for it. And I'm such a filmmaking idiot. I've no idea what it's called at all. But I know it when I see it. Right, you know, so those things are useful, and doesn't mean that every single one of my films is going to have that moment. No, of course not. That's silly. But it's one of those things where I saw someone else do that, or I heard someone else do that, if we're looking at music, or sound effects as well, you know, wow, what an interesting sound that is, how did they do that? Yeah. And so not only prototyping, and to a degree imitative work, but experimentation, which I know Ricky is huge for you. Love it. It's, it's important, and amazing things can happen. And then you tack on to that. The the element that Damien just brought up of, given the real time aspect of everything and the free flow that we now have for interaction. Yeah, you can actually involve the audience in the creative process in ways that just were not possible. Just a few years ago, and that's just that's some really good things are gonna come up that they already are, I think.

Ricky Grove 29:36
So how would you sum up the message for people mentioned them of creators who want to get tutorials, find tutorials for what they're working on? Based on this fellow's concepts? How would you sum that up?

Phil Rice 29:50
Yeah, I've been thinking about that. It's, it's it's it's hard to to say like we spoke about there's different quality of teaching going on how to how do you identify that that's, that's hard. I don't know, if I know how to quantify that

Damien Valentine 30:10
The tutorials I find most helpful with icon or when they focus on one specific feature, like, how to change the lighting. And that's all they talk about is lighting. And then you can learn just that. And you don't have to worry about any of the other features, it's just the last bit you want to know about, you can learn to stop it. And then you can play around with it and figure out how well you want to

Phil Rice 30:33
Most of the people who produce those tasks based tutorials, that ends up being what they produce for a lot of their videos. So I guess it might be, pick a particular task that you want to learn, or need to learn. And if it's the most basic one, then it might just be helped me understand the interface to this programme. Or maybe it is something related to lighting or camera control, or whatever, and find a good tutorial on that, and then go visit that person's channel, because it's, it's quite likely that they've got several of those, right. And YouTube's algorithm for all the people bellyache about it, sometimes it can be really helpful in that regard, because you start watching those, and then watch your right hand column. Other suggestions from other creators are going to show up with similar targeted tutorials. And before you know it, you've you've, you've made some progress. So yeah, I think that may be the way to go is pick a task, find a good tutorial on that. And then, you know, follow that creator to see what else they've done

Ricky Grove 31:35
is perhaps avoid the, you know, following the technique of following piece by piece by piece, you know, moment by moment by moment, without understanding the larger picture of, of how the programme works. Yes, because because, as you were saying earlier, you end up learning a bunch of details, but not understanding how they all connect together in the programme. Yeah, you invest

Phil Rice 31:59
a lot of time. And at the end of it. I've done that I've actually purchased back when you had to purchase good tutorials I've purchased, where I clone and for you to do and I've gone through them. And I couldn't I couldn't do anything on my own after though. And it is it's discouraging, it feels like a big investment of your time, and in some cases, a few dollars, only to not have anything usable. And yeah, I think this guy's hit on a better approach for that.

Ricky Grove 32:31
For sure. I'd also like to point out that the difference between written tutorials, and video tutorials, I find written tutorials suffer from that detail focused process. And video tutorials are the ones that are good by good teachers avoid that. Because you can watch, say, it is broken up into four parts, you can watch the first part three or four times because it's short. And then you'll go through and try it out. I use my laptop as my second monitor. So I'll look at that I'll watch it flat the first time without doing anything. The second time I'll open up the programme and maybe sketch out a few things. And by the third time, I've got it in my memory. Yeah, whereas it doesn't happen that way in a written tutorials for some reason, I don't find myself able to go back and retain the way I can with a video tutorial. Is that what do you do you have that experience as well, Phil?

Phil Rice 33:34
I do. I think probably the best of both worlds is is a video tutorial that is accompanied by a written supplement. Yeah, but I mean, that's hard. I mean, how do they even it's hard to distribute. And, and hard to find and and hard to find somebody who who's going to invest? It takes a lot of time to put together good, good written material and video tutorials. So but yeah, I agree if if forced to choose between the two. I mean, I I recently got the latest version of Cubase. And enough of it has changed to where yeah, I've got quite a bit of learning to do before I can. It's been like nine versions since I, since I upgraded. And there's a big ol user manual online. But that's not where I'm going to look first. I'll keep that nearby to consult. But it's not really going to tell me how to do what I want to know how to do the other. Another user who's actually used the programme, he's going to be able to do that. Yeah. The other advantage

Damien Valentine 34:33
video tutorials have is if you've got a text tutorial, and they don't explain one step correctly, and you're completely lost, you're screwed. You're screwed. If you're watching a video tutorial and the person narrating it doesn't explain it well, you can still see what they're doing. Right. You can see where the mouse cursor is going. They're clicking on so if they mess up their own explanation, you can still learn from what they're doing because you can see it right. That's a good point. Good point. Yeah. But

Tracy Harwood 35:01
go ahead, you still have to remember there's a big difference between tacit and explicit knowledge. You cannot explain to somebody how to ride a bike.

Ricky Grove 35:13
Yep, you have to do it. You have to do it. No. My experience with Nightmare Puppeteer was interesting because Mdotstrange did a journal a oh, what's the word? Love written tutorials for everything. And then he did a series of video tutorials about 15 of them. And you know, he has this sort of style that can either invigorate you or put you off, you know, because it's so ebulient. And out there. You know, he did it in character. Yeah. Because he curses so often to that could I find that amusing. But anyway, that the funny thing is, is that I found myself going with a text, I was using the text for keyboard shortcuts because he did all the lifts of them with art, which isn't necessarily clear in the video. So actually, the two complemented each other, and he created episodes. So for example, how to get your character how to create your character and how to get it into your scene. So I was able to watch that 10 minute thing, five or six times before I finally had it down and I could move on to the next step. It took a little effort, but once I got it, again, it's like that tacit and implicit Tracy. Once I understood what that was, I could do it again. No problem.

Tracy Harwood 36:41
Great pick, Phil.

Phil Rice 36:43
Thank you. Well, that is it for this episode. Join us for the next one where we'll dig into the next machinima or machinima related film. I guess that's that. Well,

Ricky Grove 36:58
well, how about anybody who has any kind of comment about the tutorials that they like? Or they want to recommend particular tutorials? Contact us at Talk at Completely Machinima dot com.

Phil Rice 37:10
That'd be great. Yeah. Yeah, I think with with the volume of tutorials out there, the challenge is curation. Right? Yeah. Finding the good stuff. So if, if you want to help others do that, let us know and we'll let everyone else know. Yep. Thanks very much, everyone.