Ricky Grove 00:10
Hello everyone, my name is Ricky Grove and I'm here with my friends Tracy Harwood, Damien Valentine and Phil Rice. For the now for something completely machinima May 2023 series of podcasts. Yay. Tracy Harwood. What's that?

Tracy Harwood 00:28
We're in June?

Ricky Grove 00:30
Oh, we are in June. That's right. I'm already starting out with a mistake. And Tracy, thank God, you're back to correct those stupid. We missed you. We missed you very much.

Tracy Harwood 00:42
I missed you all so much.

Ricky Grove 00:43
Yes, yes. In fact, that's going to be the subject of our first episode. It's going to be Tracy's trip to the Oberhausen international Short Film Festival that was founded in 1954. She was invited to it. The interesting thing is, is that this is the first year that they've included specific programming for machinima. Which is probably one of the main reasons why Tracy went. Welcome back. And let's start talking about what your experience was like. How did they invite you what was the prep process and all of that,

Tracy Harwood 01:19
Well, the the event itself, the the theme, and the theme, components of it, the Machinima theme component of it was a major part of the programme. And the the coordinators of that theme, to two young men called Vladimir Nadein and Dmitri Frolov contacted me out of the blue on email and asked me to be part of the panel discussion to talk about, you know, the whole theme of machinima. The theme was was called Against Gravity, which was a you know, it was a really intriguing you know, way that they put this programme together. So I was really glad to be a part of it. I'm really interested to hear what they got to say and the way that they developed it.

Ricky Grove 02:10
Where did it take place?

Tracy Harwood 02:12
Where did it when, or where, where,

Ricky Grove 02:14
What city, what country and what city Oberhausen

Tracy Harwood 02:16
Oberhausen in Germany, which was about 20 minutes on a nice, fast little train from Dusseldorf airport. So yep, flew out of London City Airport, which was a nice treat, nice, small airport. And about an hour later landed in Dusseldorf, and 20 minutes after that I was in Oberhausen, which was a really interesting industrial town, actually.

Ricky Grove 02:40
how long did the festival run

Tracy Harwood 02:43
It run from the 31st of May to Well hang on 20. I think 28th of May to the first of now I've got that wrong. 21st of May. It was about a month ago, it was what it was, a while back. It was it was it was a good four or five days. Unfortunately, I could only make it for a couple of days. So I flew in on the Friday night and flew out on a Monday morning, which was a bit of a shame, because I hadn't actually seen the full details of the programme before I had to book my flight, which meant that the way that they programmed it was over all of these days. And just, you know, just sections of it were running on each day. So I only really got to see four segments that they put together and they put together you know, a really interesting selection of films across all of these days. And what they've done is loosely programmed it to sort of represent a video game or machinima creative experience. So they've kind of gone from starting the game, holding the controller, crack the code, don't forget to save, opening the map, unlock the real, cosplay as. And then this retrospective of Phil Solomon as well, Phil Solomon's work was actually the inspiration for them putting the programme together. And as I understand it, so it's getting really interesting. As I understand it, what they really wanted to do was was connect analogue forms of filmmaking to digital forms of filmmaking. And obviously, what we're talking about here is the is avant garde film in particular. So not just sort of YouTube community made machinima, fan base machinima and what have you, but sort of avant you know, sort of a whole approach to avant garde filmmaking. So they so they programmed it around, connecting analogue to digital, which basically meant that within each segment, what they did was used older works, and newer works to sort of use machinima to sort of position, older machinima, in that position, what they were doing, and then showcase some more contemporary work. So it was a kind of, you know, sort of a history of as well as the way that they, you know, the way that it programmed it kind of connected these two worlds together. And Phil Solomon, of course, was this pioneering avant garde US based filmmaker who passed away in 2019. So they wanted to particularly use his work as the the kind of the key driving force behind the programme that they put together. I am actually hoping to interview both Vladimir and Dmitri, as a follow up thing for for our show here. Because I really want to ask them, how they thought it went, I think when you know, when you're in the midst of putting some together, as we all know, you know, when you're in the midst of putting something together, you kind of get lost in the detail, and you don't really sit back and take it in. But I really want to hear what they've got to say about how they thought it went, how they thought the audience's received it, because quite a lot of the stuff that I was at was sold out. And it was a you know, it was an interesting experience from that point of view too.

Ricky Grove 06:18
so you have the panel discussion, you had different segments for different films?

Tracy Harwood 06:26
Yes, loosely based around those themes. So, you know, within say, starting the game, they had a selection of, of work. In actual fact, they had a live performance, which I unfortunately didn't see, as part of that segment. But the ones that I particularly got drawn into, were opening the map and unlocking the real. And within each each of those themes, they then sort of went into that theme and in numerous kind of different ways. To, you know, to to select the works that they had. Didn't didn't always make a lot of sense to me, I have to be honest, but you know, the films were, were very interesting. Most of the films I hadn't seen some of them, some of them I had, but most I would say, I had not seen and that kind of led me down a really interesting thought process of why have not seen these films? Well, yeah, because

Phil Rice 07:26
I mean, since we have the podcast here, you're screening literally dozens of films each week.

Tracy Harwood 07:32
Absolutely. And you know, I'm continually watching content I mean, mostly, you know, five minutes here and there with a cup of coffee whilst them in between doing other things is generally speaking when I watched most of the Machinima that I I do these days. But you know, what I concluded from it was that actually, a lot of the creators that they had settled on the avant garde creators are not YouTube creators, they don't do it in the same way they don't make content for the same audience that that machinima has been generally created for. They are. Well, they're artists. You know, they these guys, these guys are these machinima as found tools. Exactly. As found tools, many of them didn't really even recognise the term machinima or even want to be associated with the term machinima. But they use it as the art creative practice using 3d engines or animation. Yeah. Some of it, some of that side of it, I was really very, very intrigued with, but the distribution strategy they have is not the same that that we often see and have focused on you know, they, they will enter it into film festival say, as some of this had been opened call, as well as selected I believe. Some of them will be making work for galleries and have that as part of their distribution strategy, but very rarely, I mean, when I was looking at the films that I saw in the programme to see if I could find them for the blog post that I wrote, I couldn't even find them on YouTube or Vimeo, Vimeo, they're just not there. Which is a pity really, because I certainly think that a wider audience is something that's needed for this type of machinima to I mean, you've often said Ricky, haven't you? I wish we could see more avant garde machinima. Well, you're not going to if they keep making it exclusively for gallery based work. One thing that I did think was interesting, there's some of the game based machinima that had been created using a game engine was being collected by galleries. And the kind of question that I had well was, how does that work with the copyright issues that, you know, we've all talked about, you know, the, you know, large sums of money are exchanged here.

Damien Valentine 10:18
There's the whole public performance thing of something that's, you know, a copyrighted, like, you can make something yourself but with a game you own is different from a public place like a gallery, screening something made with it. That's the whole that's an even, that's a completely separate rights issue. So I have

Tracy Harwood 10:39
a question. Well, it's very good question. But also the collecting issue is what I was kind of thinking of, because you can get away with showing things on public screens. relatively easily. Yeah. So

Phil Rice 10:52
interestingly, music, it's not so easy.

Tracy Harwood 10:57
Do you think it's different there? Yeah.

Phil Rice 10:58
Yeah. If there's, if there's commercial music, and it's played in a public space, even in like a retail store, there's a separate licence in place

Tracy Harwood 11:06
for that. So absalutely

Phil Rice 11:08
Yeah, I wonder. You would think that I guess maybe video games it's, it's, you know, it's not something that they've had occasion to. to clamp down on. No, yeah. Not Yeah.

Tracy Harwood 11:24
But like I said, the whole kind of distribution strategy, completely different.

Ricky Grove 11:31
And some really interesting films.

Tracy Harwood 11:34
Yeah, I've written on the on the blog post about some of the films that I did see, some of them were actually more about the use of machinima than the machinima itself. I think Solomon's work actually was was really quite, quite interesting. The you know, what they what they did there fascinating way they did this. They showed two films on I think they were on 16 mil film. So you hear the click clack of the the projector going in the background for, for these two films. And they, they and these films have been they've had like an emulsion applied to them. So they were they were corrupted films really, really, I've never seen this one before, it was really interesting to sort of try and make out what it was, that was being shown there. But then then that was sort of juxtaposed against three GTA films in which Solomon was, you know, he'd made these films, in memory of, of a friend that he had lost, and was basically exploring the glitch in the in the game and, you know, to my mind, what he what he appeared to be doing was looking for his friend that he played this game with, in the glitches. And, you know, there were all sorts of other interpretations of what these films are about, which was, was was quite interesting, but but that sort of use of the game and the way that the the assets were explored, or not explored. You know, and the narrative sort of pulled through the, through the game was a was a really kind of interesting approach to you know, to the development of, of of the work. I think what what intrigued me about that also was one of the artists that was there showcasing some of his own work not actually machinima work although I believe he does do machinima he'd he commented that he never understood why Solomon moved to machinima at all, in this move between analogue and digital but you know, the fact that the the you know, digital is about all you know, all the all the development of 3d virtual environments are now being used for sort of story making worlds and story telling, you know, creating, creating stories, making stories creating stories, in really interesting ways was was something that this guy saw as being genuinely pioneering on the part of Phil Solomon who was one of the first he saw doing this. So kind of made him sit up and think about what digital practice really is and what these new digital tools are for filmmaking. And that I think is quite interesting because although I believe Sam Crane's version of was it was it Hamlet that he did a few weeks back a few months back that we touched on, on the podcast, and Sam had basically commented that Uh, you know, the, this was important for a whole range of, well, a whole range of reasons. But he kind of missed the point of, of this move between analogue and digital and what digital actually means in this context. You know, the the move from 2d to 3d, which I think was the real that was to me was the key point being made here. That that, you know, you know what, because again, one of the questions that was asked at the panel was, you know, this idea of 3d is something that keeps being revisited. And primarily, that audience were film people they weren't, they weren't game or machinima, people at all. So they were asking that from point of view of film, and again, so the more I was sort of thinking about that, I was thinking actually, 3d means entirely different things in film and our game worlds. And it's realised in different ways, and I don't ever I'm just gonna ask you guys, have you ever do you ever remember seeing a 3d film machinima? I don't. I don't ever remember seeing a machinima that had been created as a stereoscopic film. Which is what they meant by it.

Phil Rice 16:16
Yeah, I haven't. I'm sure that someone's experimented with it, though. Because simply because at its peak, Moviestorm had quite quite a user base. And moviestorm actually had a rendering option, directly from the programme to render in stereoscopic mode. So someone out there has experimented with it, but I've not actually seen the outcome of that is not worth the effort. And I believe I clone has the render icon has it too. That's right, Damien. Yeah, it sure does.

Damien Valentine 16:48
But I don't think I've seen anything made with a game. I reckon that with extensive modding to be able to do

Phil Rice 16:54
that. Yeah. Yeah, that would be challenging.

Ricky Grove 16:57
Yeah, that would.

Tracy Harwood 16:59
So yeah, well, that was another particularly interesting discussion, which I don't sure we really, I'm not sure they really understood the key differences here, between what we talk about in in 3d virtual environments and what they understand 3d to mean, which kind of led me to the conclusion that maybe there there isn't a language to describe machinima easily to a film only audience. If one of the things is going to be, you know, more machinima being made accessible to a film audience, which it sounds like it is going to be.

Ricky Grove 17:38
Now you mentioned that there was a panel discussion. I remember reading in your blog, there was a rich difference of opinion and debate in the panel. What were some of the issues that the you guys were debating? And who was on the panel?

Tracy Harwood 17:52
Sure. Well, and Gemma Fantacci was was on the panel. She's the part of the Milan Machinima Film Festival team. And now Ip Yie Yuk, I think is how you pronounce his name or Yuk Yie. Forgive me, I haven't got the name correct. And also Alice Bucknall with both Dmitri and Vladimir. So so we were a panel of of six with six very different perspectives on it, Alice's an artist, basically using Unreal Engine as a as a toolset in which she develops her creative practice. So she's got a very specific way of working using Unreal Engine as a tool. She's in the process also, apparently of making a game. She's very interested in using AI tools as well. So she'd used chat GPT3, in order to create a virtual language to complement one of the films that were shown which was which was absolutely fascinating, but primarily used as a as a three channel art installation, not a single channel film. So that consumption experience I think was was quite interesting. I have to say a little long. I can't imagine sitting in a gallery and watching an installation for 20 minutes or half an hour or an hour I wouldn't do that. Most people wouldn't I don't think they kind of sample things and move on. Which kind of does raise yet more interesting questions about how people are telling telling stories with machinima for gallery experiences. What are they expecting of the gallery experience? I don't know. Anyway, so Alice's Alice's work as a as an artist. is one thing. Ip's work as a as a filmmaker I didn't actually see but He's using you know, he's very he was very clear that he was a passionate gamer. And that machinima was a was a found tool, but he was a filmmaker primarily. So he kind of saw the saw these things is very different, I think, although described himself as a as an avid game player, on which he'd spent many hours. And then obviously, Gemma's interest is the avant garde machinima. She's very much interested in counterculture and machinima fits quite clearly into that for her. And me, I suppose coming at it from the perspective of, of the, the the older perspective, the more of the origins of it, more of what we we do now on the on the on the show more about community, I've always been very passionate about the fact that machinima is all about community. And the fact that we're, you know, reviewing now films that are made, almost without consideration of communities is something that I think still still rankles a little bit with me, except for the fact that, you know, the YouTube community is there mostly, and much of the content is consumed through that channel, which is why in a slightly different way for me,

Ricky Grove 21:34
Did that come up in the debate that you had

Tracy Harwood 21:37
the I guess I did bring that one up. Yes. I mean, the other thing that I think I brought up, I think, was the fact that much of machinima is not made for the big screen. And you know, you're sitting there watching a film on a theatre screen. And the detail that you see on on machinima films, it's just not what you would look at when you are making the film on computer screens, or even consuming it on YouTube. That's just not what you see. And even more. So if you go to, you know, the mobile device or the iPad screen. It's most machinima isn't made for that kind of consumption experience. And which I think raises some yet more interesting questions. And what was interesting through that discussion was it's clear that not a single one of the directors that I saw, had even considered that as part of the way that they go about creating the film. Which again, very interesting.

Ricky Grove 22:42
Yes, indeed. So what were some of the topics that came up that we could would be interested in hearing and

Tracy Harwood 22:51
the topics? Well, I mean, it was it was an I think it was an hour and a half long panel. The topics were primarily, you know, what are the origins of machinima? What's the future of machinima? What's the practice that each of these panellists have in terms of their use of machinima? And then opened up for questions from the audience? Really?

Ricky Grove 23:16
What were the questions like from the audience? Well, the

Tracy Harwood 23:18
one about 3d was was was particularly interesting. There was another one about poetry, the role of machinima as poetry. And I confess that was that was directly tapping into the avant garde world which I'm not really massively offay with so that was one I couldn't really make much of except for the fact you know, literally, poetry we have seen being made. You know, as a we've seen, we've seen machinima used to accompany poems being retold.

Ricky Grove 23:58
Nora who is that wonderful director did was the specialist and mediaeval culture and mythology. Yes. Second Life she did a whole series of, of mediaeval poems. Oh, God, I forget her name. Yes.

Phil Rice 24:17
Hypatia. Yes. Now, there

Tracy Harwood 24:23
was the name I couldn't recall on the day either. Oh, boy. I know. It was very disappointed. I didn't I did sort of say, well, you know, Ozymandias, Hugh's Ozymandias was something that was put together very early on. I mean, it's not something that we we've seen, but I got the distinct impression that wasn't really what the question was about. It was more about the poetry of the game. Yeah. So there was interest in the role of the game as a you know, as a form of avant garde, but you know, the talking about the way Machinima is made and the way it was originally consumed within, within game environments, sharing dem files and all that sort of thing. It was straight over their head, they didn't really

Ricky Grove 25:13
get any of that at all. But in

Tracy Harwood 25:15
terms of the future of machinima, and you know, some of the things that we've talked about in the past, you know, such as the role of different technologies, and you know, the way people are using things like Unreal Engine to create games, and then use them for their own, you know, create their own story worlds and what have you, all of those are things that people fully understand. I think it's just a case of, you know, who has the skills to do that. And

Ricky Grove 25:45
what did you come away with after the festival? I remembered in your essay you talked about how you were surprised. It's such a different perspective on machinima that so many of the people you've met had

Tracy Harwood 26:02
I yeah, I think I, I felt that the that community of machinima people had kind of missed the point of it a little bit. Which was all about sharing and learning from each other, and engaging in discussion to push each other. That, to me has been the essence of machinima. And what originally attracted me to, to machinima in the first place that, you know, not only have you got the all these amazing, creative people, but the fact that they are then willing to engage in a discussion about this and that and learn and improve, and, and so on. And all of that side of it, to me is missing in that avant garde world, yeah, because it's all about the artist.

Ricky Grove 26:58
Yeah. It seems to be focused on museum and curation and academics.

Tracy Harwood 27:04
And and the artists, you know, it's the artists doing it for them. They don't care about the audience or the community or the other people working with these tools. It's not really about that, you know, it's not it's not, they're not really pushing each other in that sort of way. They're pushing themselves in their creative practice. It's all about them.

Ricky Grove 27:26
Yeah. Well, I remember we've had some interesting films from the Milan Machinima Festival that we picked, and I picked. And I always thought that those particular films that we had, were from people who understood the game because they had played it. Yes. And so part of their film, as as abstract, as it was, was commenting on the game itself. In a way, Phil had a choice. Once I remember some extraordinary moment. And where a guy was going across this field, and there was a dog. I can't remember where it was, but it was just so moving to me for some reason. But it seems like that connection isn't the case. They're just using it like pigment, like an oil painter is paint. I have a connection to the game itself. Yeah, I

Tracy Harwood 28:23
call it a matrix. When When I wrote a manifesto for machinima, several years ago now. And one of the things that I referred to was the fact that the game was the creative matrix, just like a board. And the oils and the brush and whatnot would be part of the matrix of the creating of a painting. Yeah, and but it still misses that key bit.

Ricky Grove 28:50
For me. That's right. Because if you look at the say, just for an example, the Half Life two machinimas you have an already built in viewership of people who know the backstory. Absolutely. And who are informed by the backstory, which is why a music video like Still Seeing Breen has such a profound and funny impact on audiences. If you show that video to so called artists, they might find something to admire in it but they would no way catch any of the other meanings behind the video. Exactly, but hadn't experienced the story of the game.

Tracy Harwood 29:39
Indeed, and but it is, you know a lot of the machinima that we review now is is devoid of fully understanding the environment in which it is made. So it is a it is a standalone story. I mean, if I remember a few weeks ago, we we talked about Astarte4s made in Warhammer 40k and You know, we got, we got a little bit of flack for for, you know, not fully understanding the Warhammer 40k world, but that's not

Phil Rice 30:10
really what we mean and understand the basic moral structure of

Tracy Harwood 30:18
Exactly, exactly. But, you know, some some of this doesn't have to be tied to the game world specifically, except for the fact that the game world adds, adds to whatever it is you're doing. Yes. And the more you know about it's just like a super fan of Star Wars, watching the Star Wars again, you know, they're gonna know, detail. That's, you know, somebody else just watching it wouldn't have it's, you know, it's the, it's the levels. And the and the, you know, the layers of depth of understanding that I think it's very interesting. But like I said, I think the real the real point of the of the programme was this connection, and, and a very timely connection between analogue and digital. And the fact that it's included in an environment like this, where they fully recognise that digital is the future of film, with all those nuances, I think will open the floodgates for more machinima created work to be included in film festivals, if they are very important.

Ricky Grove 31:32
The fact that this long, I mean, 1954, they've established a tradition of bringing information on film, the fact that they included it is a way of saying now this is something to take a look at. Absolutely. This could be a tool, whether it's part of a community based machinima approach, or individual artists, however they do it. Yeah. Are they going to bring back more programming machine and machinima next year?

Tracy Harwood 31:57
Well, there was certainly some whispers of it when I was there. So I, you know what I'm, I'm certainly going to be keep my ears to the ground, see, see what I would love to see them picking up the baton and running with it in this in this way. I think there's definitely lots of scope for it. And, you know, certainly, you know, new new kinds of concepts that we're seeing coming. I mean, not, is this a new kind of concept. It's not really, but the fact that you've got, you know, Disney and brands like Marvel rolling out story tropes across theme park, film, and virtual environment and chat bots, and so on and so forth. I mean, this surely has to be something that's going to start stimulating new, new approaches to distributing content, I think, and if it's not included in these festivals, what are these festivals about? Right?

Ricky Grove 33:04
Thank you very much for sharing your experience there. Guys do you have any final questions you want to ask her?

Phil Rice 33:13
Not a question. But just a quick comment, as somebody who kind of, you know, loosely pays attention to film festivals and occasionally looks and sees, you know, Hey, would this you know, accept the kind of content that that we make? One thing that I liked about the idea of this festival was the loose theme. The ambiguous, somewhat ambiguous theme of what did you say it was Tracy like 'against gravity' or something along those lines? Yeah, thanks. Yeah. And I so many film festivals that I've looked at, particularly short film festivals, which I might be exploring for, hey, do they accept machinima content or not? And it will, the theme will be like, so narrow. That it's, it's it's so exclusionary, that restricting? Yeah. So it's, you know, women in the workforce in Wyoming. Okay, if I happen to make a film about that, this year, I guess I can enter it. But if not, it doesn't even matter. If they make, you know, fail except machinima. It's like, what? So many of them are very narrow like that, that it may be a particular not just broad, like social justice, but a particular aspect of social justice that this particular thing of, you know, police malfeasance in southern Ohio, it's like, man, come on, you know, so I love the idea of, of, I would love the idea of stumbling upon a short film festival at a broad category like that, that's open to use in metaphor and different interpretations. And, and then even even with that loose theme, Tracy, you mentioned I think earlier that It was hard to kind of exactly see how this how it sounds, something that they selected actually fit with the theme. Well, I think that's okay. Yeah, the theme, having a looser theme isn't just good for the filmmakers. It's also good for the, for the people running the exposition that it gives them more licence to go, Hey, let's just, let's just snag this, let's we want to include this. We want to show this anyway. So I hope more more film festivals, will, will go in that direction. I'm sure they've got good reasons for why they do this specific thing, but I just don't think they're good reasons. So

Tracy Harwood 35:34
I think it's a shame that not more festivals have included machinima in their programme. I don't I've never really fully understood why they haven't given I mean, we have seen over the last 20, odd years, 30 years, nearly some of the most amazing content being created that, you know, there's had millions and millions of views once it's hit more popular platforms. Why on earth would you not include things like that in programmes that showcase, you know, trends in the development of work?

Ricky Grove 36:17
Because a lot of the people that make choices about those sorts of things are people who don't spend the same amount of time that we do. They just look at the what news, and what's most popular, and what was most popular in machinima, Red versus Blue. And if you look at red versus blue, it's all about fart jokes and shit like that. Not at the beginning, but that's what it became. So that became the representative of what machinima was. And I think many studios and people saw that as low class.

Phil Rice 36:50
And some, some of it to let's, you know, let's be frank, the the game companies themselves have not exactly been at all helpful in that regard. They've kind of, you know, radiated machinima made with their game with the sense of who we better not touch that if they have any lawyers employed for their festival at all. They're gonna go no, no, no, we can't. Yeah, and that stinks. You know, and I don't know how to fix that. It's been a problem for 20 years. More so. But that's part of it, too, I'm sure is that it's just it's legal hot potato. If it's made with the game, which is a real shame. Not just for the filmmakers, but for for those festivals, too. It's it's probably going to take someone involved with festivals like that, reaching out to those companies and saying, look, what can we do here? Because we'd like to show this. It's win-win as far as I'm concerned. Well, you know,

Ricky Grove 37:50
by the fact why I think Unity and Unreal have become such an important. Yes. Because they take that element that you're talking about a way.

Phil Rice 38:06
Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, those platforms have no issue with that whatsoever.

Tracy Harwood 38:11
But you know, what they were also really interested in when, when we, when we did the 2007 festival, I put on the judges, panels, members of Microsoft and Rockstar Games, simply to try and sidestep some of these kinds of issues. And that, you know, that was a that was a strong strategy. But here, what we've got are artists making money out of this, the work that they're creating and distributing this is not the case with most machinima and are making money out of it. And yet, it's still making it into this platform. And as I said, being sold being shared in gallery spaces, which, you know, largely doesn't have the same issues, of course, as you know, YouTube or whatever. But its managing to get around some of the issues in this community as for them,

Phil Rice 39:09
good for them.

Tracy Harwood 39:12
Yeah. Why

Ricky Grove 39:14
not? All right, why don't we wrap this up? Thank you very much, Tracy for sharing your experiences it. And for the rest of you guys for your interesting comments and discussions. Tracy, I'm sure will have a smaller write up by refer you to her great blog post on the festival experience at our main website Completelymachinima.com. We also welcome your comments. Perhaps you're an artist who works in machinima and are deeply offended by our comments on this show. We'd love to hear your excoreations and your comments and your screen. So send that to talk completely machinima.com Because we welcome those

Phil Rice 40:04
email address

Ricky Grove 40:07
directly to your

Phil Rice 40:09
personal email.

Ricky Grove 40:11
And thank you guys, and welcome back, Tracy. It's good to have you here. Next week we'll start on our regular cycle of films. Damian has picked some really good ones and that was started off. Well, thanks a lot, folks. We'll see you again next time. Bye bye